You Should Be Full of Yourself: Using Embodiment to Heal the Nervous System with Coach Kathy Taylor
Kathy, thank you so very much for joining me today. I am really, really excited to be chatting with you and just hear more about the updates to everything you're doing. For our listeners, they will have gotten a little bit of a bio on you at the beginning before they dive into our conversation, but Kathy and I actually met, she was...
Kathy Taylor (00:41.47)
I'm ready.
Reese Brown (01:06.818)
an advisor for me and my sorority work in my undergrad in college and was just an instrumental part of my growth through that experience. And this feels like a very full circle moment for me. So I'm really excited for being here and really grateful for your time.
Kathy Taylor (01:24.338)
Well, thank you. I was really thrilled and excited that you asked me, so I'm happy to be here.
Reese Brown (01:29.684)
Absolutely, well, I'm going to start with the same question I always start with, which is just what is something you're grateful for right now?
Kathy Taylor (01:37.982)
Well, right now I can look outside and I see my horses out my window and I'm always grateful of them because they teach me amazing lessons. it's just, it's a, I'm very grateful to be able to have the amount of land that we have and the property that we have to just go out into nature, hang out with the horses, do something with the horses, connect with them, have a real relationship with them. It's a lot of fun and I just get so much out of it.
Reese Brown (02:07.49)
Yeah. What do you think is different about your relationship to horses specifically as opposed to your relationship with humans or other animals?
Kathy Taylor (02:19.198)
Well, unlike like a lot of times people will say a horse is like a big dog and actually no. A dog is a predator, a horse is a prey animal. So that's a huge, just in the way that their brain works, that right there is a huge difference. And so they have relationships in different ways. We are similar to horses and dogs in that all of those species are.
Reese Brown (02:28.398)
you
Reese Brown (02:38.2)
Yeah.
Kathy Taylor (02:48.424)
herd pack animals, they're community, community focused animals. And, but just the way that we think is a little bit different. And so with a horse versus a human, actually the horse, a traumatized human is a lot like a regular horse brain as far as how it works. Meaning when a traumatized human or a human that's been through a lot of trauma, our frontal cortex, our thinking brain shuts down.
and they just don't have as much of one as we do. They have much more of a survival brain than we do. And so the way we can relate to them is different. So the way that my horses help me and help my clients is that when we can sort of grounded ourselves and realize what we're feeling, we can take that to the horse and the horse responds in a way that a human might.
But a human might cover that up. Like a human might say, I'm not afraid and just stand there. Well, a horse, if they are not afraid or if they are afraid, they will respond some way. They might not run, but they might just say, I'm just going to wander over here to some other grass. They might actually come into your space. And there are some humans that come into your space when they're afraid, right? So they're fight, flight, and
Reese Brown (04:08.568)
Right.
Reese Brown (04:15.075)
Yeah.
Kathy Taylor (04:17.294)
and freeze responses are much more obvious than ours. So we can practice our responses with them and then relate those responses to humans.
Reese Brown (04:25.454)
Mmm.
There's not the same masking almost as what I'm hearing. Yeah, that is so fascinating.
Kathy Taylor (04:31.206)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Which isn't to say that they don't hide their emotions too, because they, when they're, for example, if they're injured, they're not going to say, look at me limping. I'm the one that you need to go for mountain lion, right? They're going to try to hide that. And so, and we do that more, I think, I would think on an emotional level. So,
Reese Brown (04:49.774)
You
Kathy Taylor (05:01.436)
I feel like I'm getting off in the weeds here.
Reese Brown (05:03.966)
No, no, that's it's super fascinating. And I'm sure we'll dive more into that as we get a little bit deeper into your actual nitty gritty of the work you do with your clients. But of course, kind of second main big question to really open up our conversation is what is your story? Of course, big question, whatever you feel called to share in this moment is perfect.
Kathy Taylor (05:32.19)
What's my story? I have a lot of years. Let's see. I mean, I grew up middle class in Jacksonville, Florida. Went to private schools all my life and went to college. I've always been into horses. Married a
guy in the military and we traveled the world for a couple of decades in different countries. spent six years overseas in both England and Germany and that was a lot of fun. Had to have a couple of kids who were way older than I think they should be. But I'd say throughout that whole time, I grew up really as a...
I would call myself a people pleaser and a perfectionist, a recovering now, and someone who always felt like they had to prove their worth to not only to other people, but to myself. And so the horses have been really helpful in backing that off, helping me realize that perfection gets in the way of connection every single time. And that, and my newest horse, Sadie, is really teaching me that trying to get the approval
Reese Brown (06:37.358)
Mm.
Kathy Taylor (06:54.588)
and appease others is not the way to do it because when I go out there with that sort of energy, she's like, where are you and would you just show the heck up?
Reese Brown (07:03.22)
Mmm, wow.
Kathy Taylor (07:04.99)
Yeah. So, um, so I've, you know, I sort of come by the horses naturally since I've been doing them for 50 years or more. And then, um, more recently, um, I started in with the embodiment work that I do. And that started in 2020 when I took a course and then ended up following this other guy on social media or actually not social media. Someone told me about him and I did a webinar of his.
And when he said, okay, let's go back into ourself and put your focus on yourself. Okay. That felt fine. And then come back to neutral and then go forward again and put your focus and your attention totally on someone else. And all of a sudden I could feel that I had left myself behind. It was a, I mean, I could feel that in my body, which I'm not, I've never really been an in your body person until the last several years. Cause I thought I always thought I was in my body, but I thought,
Reese Brown (07:53.402)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (08:03.57)
I was in my body instead of feeling I was in my body. I was great at thinking my feelings, not so great at actually feeling them. So that's been an evolution and that has to come through that embodiment work. And then also through the nervous system work that I do, which is much more objective and probably I would say more, a little bit more biomechanical, but it really is objective as far as, you know, you,
Reese Brown (08:11.768)
Yeah.
Kathy Taylor (08:31.666)
You do an assessment, you do a drill and you reassess and you know right in the moment if that worked for you or not. And so that came about because I got bucked off my horse really badly in 2019. And to the point where, yeah, I could get on a horse. It's not like I couldn't ride again, but my confidence was shot. And I thought if I do get on a horse and the horse even just like stumbles, like doesn't fall, it's not like they're walking along and they just stumble for some reason.
I know my whole body is going to go, ooh, because I was in such pain on a quick jerky motion like that. So it took me about two and a half, three years to find applied neurology, which is what I've ended up doing. And after four weeks, I had my first pain-free day in like, definitely in the past three years since I'd gotten bucked off, but even before that, I had chronic back pain. And so...
Reese Brown (09:23.288)
Wow.
Kathy Taylor (09:28.326)
And then four months later, I had no pain whatsoever anytime. And I still have no pain whatsoever anytime because I continued to do my drills, which take, you know, like five minutes a day, literally. and they're super easy and they don't take a bunch of, you know, extra equipment or anything like that. So, yeah.
Reese Brown (09:47.542)
Right. I felt myself almost wanting to say it's so miraculous. then I'm like, and it feels so, but it's also deeply rooted in science. And one thing with your work in particular and reading more about it and of course knowing you that I really love is that it does bring this intersection of like hard and fast science, things that we know are
true. like you said, with the neurology that you work on, it's like, we can do this assessment, do the drills and immediately have some results. And it's very measurable. It's very quantifiable. But there is something intangible about this work too, that does make it feel miraculous. I almost borderline spiritual. How do you feel about this kind of combination between, I know you call it like,
the body in science, but is there something, I guess I'll say the hard and fast versus the soft. What does that balance look like to you in this work?
Kathy Taylor (10:56.894)
Gosh, let's see. mean, I've always, I call it the practical woo because like, I love all those crazy things. It's like, my gosh, how could this happen? This is so wild and weird and bizarre. And then finding out like how it works and what it works. It's like, well, okay. So to me, doesn't, knowing the reason why does not take the mystery out of it. It actually makes the mysterious more interesting to me.
Reese Brown (11:25.838)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (11:26.458)
And I really do like that combination of the practical and the woo. And I've had more than one client when I'm doing, especially the neuro work say, this is voodoo. In the, like in the moment and one, the other day called it scientific voodoo. And I was like, that's a great, that's perfect definition. Yeah. Yeah. Cause she, she, she goes, you've got to tell me how this works. So I explained to her, it's about the nose receptors and this and that other thing. And she's like, okay. And she's a scientist.
Reese Brown (11:43.726)
That's great. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny.
Kathy Taylor (11:55.624)
So she understood that and she really appreciates the science, but she also, know, it's, don't, how often do we actually tap into our brain as instead of just something to think with, something to help our body move better because all of those things are in there.
Reese Brown (11:59.246)
Right.
Reese Brown (12:12.63)
Right. Well, in almost using the knowledge of what we have about the brain now and that it is connected to every part intimately of our body and using that knowledge as a tool to be able to help ourselves as opposed to having the knowledge and kind of saying, okay, like this is something that we know how it works, but it's what's the next step with it.
In terms of the practical, Wu, I love it. Where do you feel like the idea of a mind connecting with the brain kind of takes shape in this work? Do you feel like there is something that you see in your clients that is selfhood kind of evolving as they learn this tool of the brain, or is it more of a returning to
their roots and their core of learning the brain. I don't know if I framed that in the right way. Does it feel like they're taking ownership and control of something or returning to something more or something else?
Kathy Taylor (13:21.95)
Mm.
Probably, I would say most of the time returning, but I don't know that, but that's my perspective. They might think because I feel like so many of my clients and because I was there too, right? We're so in our head about everything. We're like, let's think about this. Let's problem solve. Let's take the pieces apart and figure out what it is so we can fix the one part so the whole thing can get fixed. And so that's a very biomechanical.
Reese Brown (13:28.43)
Mm.
Reese Brown (13:33.358)
Sure.
Kathy Taylor (13:54.834)
sort of left brain masculine, if you will, sort of way to go towards things. And so if we can say, okay, there's nothing wrong with that, that's very valuable. And there's this other part over here that's valuable that you can actually get to it that way. so I think a lot of times people would like to start with this neuro because it's comfortable. They're like,
Kind of like me, don't want to feel my feelings. I just want this to go away. it's like, okay, but you actually have to feel your feelings. Like that's actually a good thing. And maybe the reason that you're afraid to feel your feelings is because your brain is in threat and it's like, no, this feels too horrible. So if we can calm down the brain, we can calm down the system, then it actually makes it easier for the person, for the client, whoever it is.
to go, now my whole system is a little bit settled down. I'm able now to feel those feelings just a teeny tiny bit. And now maybe just a little bit more and then take a break and just a little bit more and take a break. So it's this, we're really taking baby steps and so it's about practice. so whether it's a return or something new, I don't know, I kind of think, is there anything new under the sun?
No. But, you know, are they aware that they are returning? Probably not until later on, but I don't really know that for sure. That's just my guess.
Reese Brown (15:29.518)
Sure, sure, absolutely. I think that makes a lot of sense and at least speaks to your experience with this too, right? That not only is this something that you learn and actively teach and are an expert of, but it's something that has really worked for you. And I'm curious what you think was the first element that really sparked your interest in doing this kind of work. I know you said.
Of course, you'd always been interested in the horses, why get into, I hesitate to use the term coaching because it's such an oversaturated word, but into help service work. What called you to that specifically?
Kathy Taylor (16:14.622)
I think it was, so when I got into the work that I do with the horses, the equine assisted learning, I got there because I went to a demonstration. And I mean, I've been, this is in 2008, I think. So was a long time ago. So I went to this demonstration. So I've been riding since I was five, been in horses since I was five. And, you know, several people invited me to this thing and tried to explain to me what it was.
And I was like, I still don't understand what the heck you're saying. have no idea, but it involves horses. So I'll go. And, know, that seems to be a common thing. Like, I don't know what it is, but I'll try it. That's very, that seems to be a way that I get to places that I'm supposed to be. So I definitely got. Thanks. Yeah. So I definitely got to the, to the Equine Assisted Learning that way, because, so the, the story that I've got is, at this demo.
Reese Brown (17:01.462)
It's a beautiful, a beautiful attitude to have. I love it.
Kathy Taylor (17:14.11)
There was a facilitator and he had a, call him a client or whatever in the arena, the little round pen with the horse. And he asked if the horse, if he could get the horse to stand still for one minute in one place. And the guy kept, the horse was moving around, the guy kept putting him back and it was frustrating for both of them and that sort of thing. And so, but at one point somehow there was a feed bucket that appeared at the side of the round pen.
And the horse says, yay, there's breakfast. So he went over to the, and started eating. And so the guy's like, huh. So he pushed him back to where he put him back to where he was. And the horse like stood there for about maybe a micro second. And then like, I'm walking back over to the bucket. Thank you very much. And this happened a few times. And finally the guy's like, okay, forget it. He just picks the bucket up and he puts it outside of the round pen. So the horse, you know, took away the option. And, and so there were a couple of things that I got out of that.
One was how different your perspective is when you're in the arena doing it versus when you're outside, because all of us outside were like, why did he do that? Like that was the answer to his problem, right? Like put the bucket anywhere. Yes. Put the bucket anywhere or whatever. And yeah. And so later on when the facilitator asked, so.
Reese Brown (18:23.33)
Right, he'll be standing by the bucket for a minute. Yeah, yeah.
Kathy Taylor (18:36.424)
how many times in your life are you so focused on the problem that you don't see the solution when it's right there in front of you? I was like, my gosh, like knock me over with a feather. So there was that lesson. There was a lesson about the perspective and there was also the lesson about where are times in our lives that we put restrictions and rules on ourselves that aren't there? Because the guy had never said that the horse had to stay.
Reese Brown (18:46.817)
Right.
Reese Brown (18:59.598)
Hmm
Kathy Taylor (19:03.87)
in the same place that you started for 60 seconds. It just said any place for 60 seconds. He didn't say you couldn't use food to do it. All these things. So he had put so many restrictions and constraints on himself to keep him from it. And then when he did see that, you know, the solution was just really right there in front of him and he just didn't see it.
Reese Brown (19:26.776)
Wow.
That is really, really powerful. I think this idea of how often do we put restrictions on ourselves that aren't there is so true. And it's something I was thinking about the other day with just all of the, like this rule book that I kind of constantly have going as a partial internal monologue throughout the day of, well, but you can't do that. but you can't do that.
but you can't do that. And I was just thinking about how many times in a day I tell myself I can't do something, even if it is just, don't blow your nose in front of your class or something, right? But it's like, still a, no, that's against the rules. But that rule is still something that has been made up.
Reese Brown (20:22.402)
What restrictions do you find you most help people start to break down and break away? And how does that ripple out into other areas of their life? Because I would imagine, like you said, it's a practice that I imagine as people start to practice this kind of system of breaking down some of these restrictions that it starts impacting
other things more broadly, right?
Kathy Taylor (20:54.44)
Yeah, well, so I think so much of those constraints we put on ourselves are things that we have, that we have pulled onto us or have been put onto us so that we belong. Right? And belonging is a, I mean, it's a, it's a human need. We literally must belong when we are an infant or we will die. And so to me, it kind of goes back to all those needs that we have and where they met.
Reese Brown (21:09.816)
Mm.
Kathy Taylor (21:23.486)
were they not met, how were they met? so we have this, and Gabor Mate says this, if you're familiar with him, he's a, I think he's Hungarian, doctor, psychologist, something. He's got a lot of books on trauma. And he talks a lot about this tension between authenticity and belonging. So how can we be our true self?
Reese Brown (21:33.71)
Mm-mm.
Kathy Taylor (21:52.44)
and belong and how often we choose to belong instead of being our authentic self because that's what we need to survive. And so the work that I do with myself, with my clients is trying to find out what is that balance of uncovering, recovering, discovering your true self and for yourself and how can you also belong.
Reese Brown (22:02.606)
Right.
Kathy Taylor (22:21.584)
And what I find is that the more you can do that, it seems counterintuitive, but, you know, because I think that's as we grow up, right? As we grow up and get older, that's that whole process of individuation is the more I can be myself, the more I actually belong. And not just to myself, but the more I feel like I belong within my society, my family, my whatever. And
I love what Brene Brown says too. She talks about how the, what is it? The most compassionate people are also the most boundaried. Now when we are boundaried in ourselves, we know who ourselves, who we are, where we start and where we end, then it's easier to know where someone else begins and someone else ends. So we don't go in trying to fix them and control them.
Reese Brown (23:01.774)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (23:13.954)
Right.
Reese Brown (23:21.014)
Yeah, absolutely. Another Brene Brownism popped into my head as you were talking too, that was the difference between belonging and fitting in, right? That it's like, there's often this idea of like true belonging is when we're in our authenticity and still a part of the in-group, but fitting in serves the same purpose as belonging for that baseline safety and security, right? And if
Kathy Taylor (23:30.014)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (23:50.828)
the belonging because authenticity is vulnerable. feels like more of a risk to be able to go there, do that, let ourselves open up.
Have you ever found, well, because I tend to agree with you that the more we are authentic, the more we do belong. I do think that people really, you automatically magnetize yourself to people that are going to be your people and you allow other people to be their authentic selves too when you are. What is the thing that has helped people
I mean, it's sitting right behind you. Be full of themselves. I love that this is your technique. I think it's such a genius phrase from all of the perspectives, both the psychology, philosophy, marketing. It's just a brilliant phrase. But what's the first step of being full of yourself? And I suppose before we even get it there, how would you define being full of yourself?
Kathy Taylor (25:01.31)
Yeah, I love this. You know, I think we hear or we associate be full of yourself with stop being so full of yourself because somebody was like, stop being so full of yourself when you were a little kid. And I don't know, probably four or five years ago, I thought, well, hang on a second. Who else am I supposed to be full of if I'm not full of myself? Like, I don't want to be full of...
you or my mom or my sister or whoever, I need to be full of me because otherwise I'm not me. I'm not being my authentic self. And to me to also to be full of it is, to be, I don't know, taking up sort of from this internal posture perspective, taking up all that space in you, like not having other people's thoughts running through your head. And I'm not saying that I've got this mastered by any stress of the imagination.
Reese Brown (25:35.469)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (25:55.599)
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Kathy Taylor (25:55.998)
But it's certainly, but it's a practice, right? So not having other people's thoughts running through my head and not doing things just because the way that someone else did just because they said they did or they said I should, maybe, maybe not. I mean, I feel like in business, the more, the longer I've been in business, the more I think all these blueprints for business, like everybody's got a different blueprint.
Why, you know, and my nervous system is going to be different from your nervous system. So to say that this is the seven steps to success is just a bunch of baloney. It's your seven steps to success. And that is great. I'm thrilled for you. And I might, my number two might be the same as your number four or whatever or similar, but I'm going to do it in a different way. And I feel like so much of, in our effort to belong, we think let's do it this way because it worked for them.
And if it worked for them, then I'll belong. actually going back to that, if we can have the courage to do it, maybe follow that generally, do it a little, you know, put our tweak on it. Then we actually have success in the way that we want to have success in the way that we feel successful.
Reese Brown (27:07.214)
Wow, yeah. And then it really does become success defined by your own version of it. Because I think you hear a lot, like, and I reached the top of the mountain and it was kind of like, then what what has all this been for? Like, I'm living my wildest dreams, but I'm not happy like I thought I would be. And I think largely, it's because, well, you are chasing the dream of success that is
Kathy Taylor (27:16.456)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (27:36.276)
sold to us, not the dream of success that is yours, that is your success. And so when you do it on your terms, it inherently is your definition of that, which I think is so, powerful and allows everyone equal opportunity to success based on their own definition.
What would you say to someone that is like, okay, I love this. I wanna start being full of myself. How can we start thinking about this to try and change that narrative in our head of becoming more our own voice than external voices and being full of ourselves as opposed to rules, restrictions, other people or any other number of things?
Kathy Taylor (28:31.09)
Yeah, well, I think the first step is just, of course, this is my first step. But I do think in general, you need to know where you're starting from. Right. So like, what are the places where do you notice, I played small there or I felt my body shrink back. Right. Even that, I mean, it might not be a conscious thought, but you can you can you notice your body just going just back just as little as bit.
Reese Brown (28:37.075)
Right, right.
Reese Brown (28:42.711)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (28:59.164)
And it might not even be your whole body moves, but maybe you just kind of feel sort of this, you know, your spirit inside you just kind of get a little smaller, like, I shouldn't say that. Or does it also just be like, well, blah, blah, blah, blah, get really, really big because that's also not really taking up your space. That's taking up yours and then some, and that part's not yours to take up. So, to me, the embodiment work that I do is very, what's the word?
Reese Brown (29:19.01)
Mmm.
Kathy Taylor (29:29.776)
It's a very sensing thing, sensory. And so it's like, we literally will move our body backwards and forwards down and up narrow and wide in space. Like how much space should I take up right now? And so this may be a silly equation or analogy, but like if you're on a crowded bus and there's more or you know,
Reese Brown (29:32.782)
Mmm.
Kathy Taylor (29:58.32)
and there's more and more people getting on, you're going to take up less space because you're trying to make room for more people, right? But as more people get off, you can take up more space again. know, right there, everybody, you're not necessarily trying to be in connection with anybody or anything like that. And that's sorry, this is really going to go off the rails here. But because because what I.
Reese Brown (30:20.926)
No, no such thing. I want to hear it.
Kathy Taylor (30:25.426)
What came back into my body when I was feeling that was when I was in Italy after college. I was on this, I was on a crowded bus. And so I was getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. And there was this guy who was like right in front of me, like, you know, like, you know, on the bus, you kind of like turn back to back or like, you're not going to be facing each other because that's very confrontational. No, this guy was like, like, like his head was like right here.
which means his body was like right in front of me and he is starting to push on me. And I was like, no. And I'm, but you know, I'm thinking, is this, is he doing it because the bus is crowded and we're getting jostled and all that. Still not cool, but at least understandable. And the next time he did it, I'm like, no, that was totally intentional. And I had my fist and I had my little finger out like this, even just a little bit further. You know, how you just do the little newbie thing.
And it was like right at the level of his navel. And I was like, if he does that one more time and he comes one more millimeter closer, he is going to get a punch in the gut. And fortunately he got off at the next stop and he didn't do it anymore. But like, so in that instance, I was getting, making myself smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. And finally, at some point I was like, no, like this is my space. And
Reese Brown (31:44.814)
Mmm.
Kathy Taylor (31:47.932)
So part of me wonders, did he actually, not consciously, but did he feel me like straighten up and go, this is my space. And so then he didn't do that anymore. And I mean, I'll never know. But these are the things that go through your body. I mean, and that was how many, 40 years ago, 30 years ago. I can't remember when I even was in college now, but you know, that's what the thing about the body remembers. And so the body remembers when you were two years old or two days old, you don't consciously
Remember it, you don't have thoughts of that, but it's in your body. so noticing when you go, I need to get smaller or, huh, I gotta get really big, or I don't really know where to be. And I'm sort of all over the place. Noticing in your body when you feel like that and then seeing, well, what was going on then? What was I feeling then? What was I experiencing? Then you can sort of start mapping out.
Was I being too passive? Was I being too aggressive? How can I find that assertive place? Because it's always in the middle. And that changes from time to time, I mean all the time, depending on who you're with, what the situation is, it's gonna change on what your energy level is. Did you have enough, did you have a good breakfast that morning? Did you have a good sleep the night before? Yeah.
Reese Brown (33:12.014)
Sure. Yeah, no, I think that is unbelievably powerful. And I've been thinking a lot about, not even recently, over the last few years, about how connection really is about space. And there's so many different definitions of space. But even in listening to you talk right now about how we make ourselves smaller and bigger,
and the language of like feeling these things, right? All of this is both physical and energetic because we know how we can like physically make our bodies smaller and physically make our bodies bigger. But also I think in your example as well, it was also the energetic like, I'm trying to not take up space. I don't want to bump into anyone. But then the energetic, okay, I'm going to stand my ground. And it's the both.
and of that. How would you describe this kind of both and of being full of yourself? And I guess I'm also curious about this connection to almost like the body's memory. Do you think there is
Reese Brown (34:34.21)
This might sound like a silly way to phrase it, but a place in the body where that is stored, because I know with a lot of somatic nervous system work, is like like people will say they get in a pigeon pose and then all of a sudden they start crying, right? Like there's this big emotional release when something in the physical body is stretched and released and maybe that place has been tight. Is there an energetic memory to the body as well? How do you?
kind of conceptualize of that.
Kathy Taylor (35:07.914)
I'm, I'm not, I would not say I was trained or knowledgeable in like, my, shoulder means this or my liver means that, I look at it more from maybe from more of a, a big picture, sort of a global kind of lens. so like one thing I'm thinking of is when you're trying to combine that.
that's that's how did you say the sensing and the the physical and the and the body how did you say it
Reese Brown (35:43.031)
it's physical and energetic, maybe? Is that what I said? Okay.
Kathy Taylor (35:47.1)
Yes, that's what it was. Yes. Yeah. So, so our body, our body automatically does what it does energetically, right? Like, and what I mean by that is you, it's hard to say, I'm reading this really good book. And you're like big and wide and forward, right? Like you don't read books like that. You read a book.
You're sitting back in a chair, and so you're pretty narrow and back and down. You might be wide. Maybe you got your legs are spread out, you're crossing your legs in your books, I'll take this. And you see the five-year-old kid going down the soccer field to score their first goal, and you're not going, boy, I really hope they score that goal. No, you're the opposite. You're up and forward and wide, like go, go, go, encouraging, right?
So in the embodiment work that I do, we've got these quadrants. And so that first one is I'd call it inner experience. The second one is collaboration and they're opposite of each other. There's also a connection one and a self agency quadrant. And you say you can kind of go around those. So one of our poses, for example, is called gateway. And gateway is, it's like you're holding your arms out, your legs are wide. So this is a, it's a wide pose. It's active.
And in this point, it's it's it's also back. So my focus is on myself and I'm taking up space and What's the other one and I'm and I'm yes, I'm taking up some so it's action and it's right so I'm back wide and back wide and wide and Up that's the other one thinking what's the other dimension?
And so in this, this is sort of this pose and you can do it if you want to just try it. Like what, like what does that feel like to you if you get in that pose?
Reese Brown (37:45.004)
Yeah, I'm...
Reese Brown (37:52.93)
I mean, it does, it feels very open and almost.
Reese Brown (38:01.228)
You know, it's interesting because I was expecting it to feel aggressive isn't the right word, but more dominating. And it actually feels quite vulnerable to be so open, right? And I have a wall here, so I'm not quite as open as I could be, to be super broad and maybe it's the back as well that feels vulnerable.
Kathy Taylor (38:14.622)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (38:30.478)
Even though you're tall, it does kind of feel like a breeze could push you over, right? Because you're not super...
Kathy Taylor (38:40.296)
Mm, okay.
Reese Brown (38:41.484)
You're not in your three point stance.
Kathy Taylor (38:43.984)
Okay, so try that again. We'll just play with you for a sec if that's okay. And I don't know if people see this. Is this a video as well when you release it? Okay. Okay, so I don't know how much they'll see, but anyway. So we've got our...
Reese Brown (38:48.174)
Absolutely, I love it.
Reese Brown (38:54.51)
It is, it's also a video.
I can post photos on social media as well for audio only listeners, so we'll make sure people see.
Kathy Taylor (39:04.685)
Okay. Okay. So, and you're, so you're seated, right? But you've got your feet on the ground and your arms are out, like, kind of like, like you look like a tree. And so, but you said it still felt vulnerable. So one of the reasons it feels vulnerable is because you are open, right? Like this is, you're, you might be looking out, but if you bring the attention to like your, the space between your shoulder blades.
Kathy Taylor (39:31.634)
and then down to your sacrum.
Kathy Taylor (39:36.286)
and then down to your feet.
Kathy Taylor (39:43.486)
and how does that change anything?
Reese Brown (39:49.632)
It does feel more grounded. feels...
Reese Brown (39:57.826)
I feel rooted. That's the word I'm looking for. Yeah, a little bit more rooted.
Kathy Taylor (39:59.71)
Okay, great, great. That's just what I was hoping. Yeah, so now feeling a little more rooted, if you think about, so feeling this way, so this is a space of self-acceptance, self-appreciation, that I can accept myself for everything great that I do and everything horrible that I do. Everything that, you know, my limitations as well as my successes. So if you think now in this feeling this way,
Reese Brown (40:20.535)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (40:27.698)
And if your arms get tired, just let them down for a second, right? Cause it is tiring. But there, but think about, there are times where maybe, so, so you've, seems like you found that, that a balanced, we call that a balanced gateway, right? Where you feel like, yeah, I can do this. But think about something that maybe you're like, I don't know if I can do that. Like something that you're like, I don't know. Am I going to go?
Reese Brown (40:30.209)
you
Reese Brown (40:52.366)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (40:55.272)
What's something that you would sort of never think you would be able to do?
Reese Brown (40:59.329)
goodness.
Reese Brown (41:06.026)
This is so funny that this is the first thing that occurred to me and maybe it's actually really indicative of my personality because I'm like in career and like posting things. I'm like public speaking or anything like that. I'm like, I would we'd make it happen. But like asking someone out is something that has always been really difficult for me to like make the first move, which may seem a little superficial, but it's like
That was, it was the first thing that came up, so I'll go with it.
Kathy Taylor (41:36.144)
Okay. So, so feel into your body, like feel that that situation. And first of all, what I would like you to do is because it my assumption is that you're focusing on the other person, right? Like even though it's you asking them that you're like, am I going to get rejected or not? Are they going to say yes or no? So bring that attention back to you.
Reese Brown (41:52.332)
Mm.
Reese Brown (41:55.789)
Right.
Kathy Taylor (42:04.561)
and then just try to go into that gateway pose, but only bring your arms up or as wide as they really want to be that feels really like you.
Reese Brown (42:28.578)
Yeah, it does not feel.
as strong. feels a little wilted.
Kathy Taylor (42:37.138)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So if when you're feeling like this, if you're trying to go, I've got this, your body and your brain, they know the difference, right? It's not actually authentic. And so that's when we kind of take up too much space. So if you can just sit there for a minute in this, like, yeah, it doesn't really feel all that great to think about that. And then like, what's the resource that you need?
Reese Brown (42:48.813)
Yeah.
Kathy Taylor (43:05.96)
Do you need to feel more grounded first? Do you need to get narrower first? And just move your body in that way. Just kind of think about your seat and your feet for a sec and see how does that change where your arms are kind of willing to be able to go.
Kathy Taylor (43:26.096)
Don't try to force it, just listen. And if they only go up a little bit and they want to go back down again, that's okay too.
Kathy Taylor (43:40.414)
So what's happening?
Reese Brown (43:44.086)
It is getting stronger, but I moved back actually a little bit in my torso, which makes me recall what you said almost at the very beginning of our conversation about...
Kathy Taylor (43:51.23)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Reese Brown (44:02.638)
The training that you got where you were told to like step fully into yourself and then back to neutral and then into someone else and you left yourself behind the move backwards feels like It's not this false or not. Well, maybe false kind of confidence of like broad shoulders, but this kind of
Kathy Taylor (44:12.7)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (44:27.982)
I suppose grounded, a bit more.
not protected, but it doesn't feel... It feels strong from like a home base feeling.
Kathy Taylor (44:44.176)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, great. Okay. So your body, even though I said go down, it went back. So you listen to your body. Awesome. So you went down and back a little bit. So I'm curious now if you bring your arms a little bit narrower.
Reese Brown (44:52.044)
Mm-hmm.
Kathy Taylor (45:02.28)
Like bring your elbows a little closer to your body and just to see.
And then kind of root back down again, and go back. And just feel that. Feel your sacrum, feel that space between your shoulder blades. Take a breath.
Reese Brown (45:32.802)
That's so funny. It does. It feels very out of balance in that my back feels very vulnerable. But I feel my gut instinct was this is very protective. It's like, I'm very much protecting self. But I was like, as I'm doing that, it's like it is exposing that kind of like spinal column more.
than here that feels like it kind of nestles it in a little bit. This kind of lets my back be exposed, but yeah.
Kathy Taylor (46:06.748)
Okay.
Kathy Taylor (46:12.21)
Okay, so the narrow it sounds like does not feel good to your system. Okay, cool. All right. So instead of bringing your, sorry, so you were bringing your elbows together like this. If you just, well, let's see, don't worry about that. So now kind of give your body a little shake for a second just to kind of shake it all off.
Reese Brown (46:16.104)
Mm-mm. No. That's so funny.
Kathy Taylor (46:35.42)
And now if you think about that scenario of asking someone out and just allow your body to go into sort of whatever kind of gateway-esque pose it wants to go in and just feel what does it want to go in now?
Kathy Taylor (47:10.366)
How does that feel different from before?
Reese Brown (47:17.55)
It is.
almost a balance of not moving back too much because there is still something about the like forward active stance that feels powerful. And this almost feels like too protected to...
to be open, it does take a certain amount of openness to connect.
But I've also noticed, I don't know if you can see, my hands throughout that process, they were very much like blades. In that last one, I was like, my hands feel much softer. So even though my shoulders and chest felt like it took a strong position, my hands softened and my feet stayed rooted and grounded. think also the connection between like,
Kathy Taylor (48:03.646)
Mmm. Mmm.
Reese Brown (48:22.83)
between the shoulder blades, sacrum, and then feet, that up to downward movement really helps with that feeling of grounding as well for me. That visual is super helpful.
Kathy Taylor (48:33.726)
Yeah, cool. Cool. Yeah. So that's what I do when I play with people's bodies. Just moving them, moving back to space. you know, everyone's different. Sometimes it's a practice from like, we're getting really small to really big to really small to really big because that's what they need, their body, because maybe they're sort of stuck in the middle. It's like, so can you do the two extremes? Other times it's, can do the two extremes, but finding that middle place.
Reese Brown (48:40.11)
Thank you!
Reese Brown (48:49.72)
Right.
Kathy Taylor (49:01.252)
is really hard. So sometimes you go fast, sometimes you go super slow, sometimes it's just a micro movement, sometimes it's a big one and everybody's system is different. So it's always interesting and fun, but it's just very enlightening. It's like, this is what my body actually does.
Reese Brown (49:17.952)
willing to actually, it's a different type of intelligence that you're tapping into that we're not used to tapping into, right? Like even in that moment of like, just let it let your body do what it wants to do. Don't try and force it. It's like, yeah, I am I am trying to force something that it's like, is this the right answer? Is this what Kathy is looking for? And it's like, of course, that that's antithetical to the entire experience and process. But it's
The practice is also in the noticing of that, right? And in the noticing of those pieces that want to come out to play and it's like, okay, no, just let, let, let be in it. That's thank you for that. I deeply appreciate it. And I think our listeners will find that really, really fascinating as well.
So when you talk about these neural exercises you do with your clients, is this indicative of a lot of what that work looks like? Is this a main exercise you use? Are other exercises similar? Yeah, tell me a bit more about the nitty gritty.
Kathy Taylor (50:24.68)
Yeah, so this specific stuff that we just did was I would call the embodiment work. And so we call it embodied intelligence. So you talked about it's a different kind of intelligence. It's the embodied intelligence. And I think of as embodied as something that I don't have to think about. just is. Like I want to have embodied confidence. I don't want to have to go, I need to be confident now. I just want to be confident, right?
Reese Brown (50:31.895)
Okay.
Reese Brown (50:44.206)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (50:50.232)
Right.
Kathy Taylor (50:54.012)
So that's sort of one way to approach it. The other way, the more neuro way is really much more.
It's not really cognitive, it's just really objective. So for example, you know, this may or may not work on you because I don't know your system at all, but you know, we'll do something like,
So for example, if you just sort of test your range of motion right now of your neck, like how far can you turn to the left?
and just notice sort of where your eyes land. So that's gonna be your, and you know, if there's any stiffnesses or anything like that, you don't wanna go to make any pain, but you're just sort of noticing that.
Kathy Taylor (51:44.134)
And then just do something really simple. Like I said, I don't know if this will work on you or not, but this is a cranial nerve drill. And so just if you do a tongue circle, so you're just gonna take your tongue and just go around your mouth like this.
Reese Brown (51:49.262)
short.
Kathy Taylor (52:02.334)
and just do that three times in each direction.
Reese Brown (52:07.882)
And for listeners, this is drawing a circle with your tongue around the outside of the inside of your lips, if that makes sense.
Kathy Taylor (52:16.038)
Yeah, between your teeth and your lips, keeping your lips closed. Yeah. Kind of like if you're trying to get something out of your teeth and you want to look very obnoxious.
Reese Brown (52:19.01)
Mm-hmm.
Kathy Taylor (52:31.644)
Okay, and so now just test your range of motion in your neck again. I know mine got, I mean, my range of motion isn't any better necessarily, but the tension in my neck is like gone.
Reese Brown (52:44.424)
Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, that's really, that, is really, really wild. Wow. Because I completely agree. I don't know if my range of motion actually got better, but it was like a few stiff points where it's like, that is just not stiff anymore. Can I ask what, what does the tongue movement do? What, what part of the nervous system is it my
Kathy Taylor (52:44.924)
This is usually when people say voodoo.
Reese Brown (53:13.39)
terminology is not going to be correct. So please correct me. But what part of the nervous system is that lighting up to create a new pathway, healing a pathway?
Kathy Taylor (53:25.08)
well, so this is where it's going to get really sciencey sounding probably. But, so that's a, that's a cranial nerve, right? You have a cranial nerve that's in charge of your tongue movements. And if it doesn't get the, input that it needs, so you're giving your, your, by, moving it, you're giving that nerve some more input. And so then it says to the brain, Hey, here's what's happening in this nerve. And the brain gets more information from that nerve. And then it can go, okay, now I know where things are a little bit better.
Reese Brown (53:35.342)
Mmm.
Kathy Taylor (53:54.354)
My whole system can go calm down just a tiny bit, reduce this threat and therefore you reduce your pain in your neck or in your back or whatever it happens to be that you're working on. Yeah.
Reese Brown (54:06.734)
Wow. No, that's really, really brilliant. And like you said, very grounded in science, but it's the practical womb. As we move into the last little moments of our interview here, I want to ask why this work is so meaningful to you. And I know we touched on a little bit about how discovering this work and starting with
your relationship to the horses and feeling the way that this has really helped you in your own growth and your own healing has been, you know, a big piece of your journey. Why are you so motivated to continue helping people with this? And what does that meaning look like?
Kathy Taylor (54:57.926)
Mm. Well, first of all, because it works.
and I think that's one thing with the neuro stuff is people can see that it works like right away. And so you get a quick win and people are like, yeah, like I feel better. And I can see that I feel better. It's not just in my head that I think I'm actually feeling better. And then, you know, it's all the same nervous system, whether we're working on it from this sort of sensing feeling gateway kind of thing that we did before, or we're doing a literal drill.
Reese Brown (55:09.644)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (55:18.263)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (55:32.668)
It's all the same nervous system. And I, from a really big picture perspective, I truly believe that embodiment is the way to world peace. Because when we are in our body, we are connected to ourselves. And the only when we're connected to ourselves can we really be connected to someone else in a meaningful way.
Reese Brown (55:44.066)
Wow, yeah.
Kathy Taylor (55:59.142)
It's when we're in our bodies and we're connected to others that it makes it really hard to call someone else a name or to miss you might misunderstand someone, but you know, because you're going to have a rupture and repair and relationships, but it makes it easier to repair that relationship when you're assuming some positive intent from them because you see them also as a human being. And so, that's my big picture. Not that I ever think I'm going to be like my, it's not like my mission to achieve world peace, but if I can help
Reese Brown (56:19.192)
Right.
Kathy Taylor (56:28.74)
us each take up all that space that we've been given, like every single bit of it, no more and no less, then we all can then put pressure on each other's in a pressure in a way that connects us, right? And what I mean by that is...
Reese Brown (56:45.238)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (56:49.98)
there was an exercise that we did at a workshop that I attended. It was just, it was so just mind blowing. And it was, know, there were two of us and we faced each other and we put our hands towards each other and touched, right? And so the first instruction was how much pressure do you need to feel like you're connected to this human? So our hands are, mean, our palms are facing each other, touching each other.
How much pressure do they need to put on you? How much do you need to put on them for you to both feel connected? So it was really this balance of, well, so I happen to be working with someone who has one particular attachment style and I'm another particular attachment style. So I put my hands up there and she put her hands up there and it was almost like her hands were sort of tickling mine. Like I need more pressure to feel connected.
You know, I need, I need like more surface area. So I pushed a little harder, like seeking that connection. And she thought I was, you know, in her, her body thought, it's being pushy. need to draw back. so before I knew it, you know, her, her hands are kind of at her ears and my shoulder, my elbows are straight, almost, you know, pushing on her. And I'm just, and I'm still thinking, I need more connection. I need you to push back. Her body didn't feel safe to push back.
Reese Brown (57:46.008)
Right.
Reese Brown (57:58.03)
Hmm.
Kathy Taylor (58:15.398)
And so it was this, you know, dance of how much can you feel safe? How much can I feel safe? How do we feel safe enough together to have this relationship?
Reese Brown (58:25.048)
Wow, that is so beautiful. I'm like, quick, do some tongue circles and then try again, right?
Kathy Taylor (58:33.96)
But yeah, and so yes, that's exactly what we can do is do some drills right then to bring the threat level down. Try it again. Okay. How is it now? We just give the body more options that it hadn't, you know, it's like if you think you have the choice of six things and suddenly none of them work and you go, well how's, how about 60? The body's like, okay. Let's try this. Let's try that.
Reese Brown (58:42.606)
Wow. Well, and I think
Reese Brown (58:59.212)
Yes. Wow. That is really so beautiful. Okay. Final two questions. second to last question in light of our conversation and everything we've chatted about and experienced together, is there anything we missed that you want to make sure you throw out there? Is there anything that you want to say? Anything you want to add?
Reese Brown (59:29.166)
anything at all, this is time for you to speak in case I didn't get to anything that you feel is worthwhile.
Kathy Taylor (59:44.92)
Yeah, here's something. I think, especially in our culture, where we all want everything to be better, often we all want it to be better now or yesterday. And the whole idea of, if I can just fix this, then I'll be okay, and I'll fix this, and I'll be okay, and I'll fix that, then I'll be okay. It's kind of like trying really hard to fall asleep when you can't fall asleep. It just makes things harder. And so,
you know, from that embodiment perspective, it's like, you know, sort of forward and up and narrow, like I'm always doing these things. And if I can literally like come down and sense and make a little space and have some space and really have in my mind and in my body that I'm doing this and things are happening, even though I might not be consciously aware, trust that things are happening and trust that you are where you are supposed to be.
that wherever you're going to get, you will get there eventually and that will be where you're supposed to be. And every step along the way is also where you're supposed to be, even if it's not very comfortable.
Reese Brown (01:00:58.636)
A reminder we all definitely need to hear and embody. To close out our conversation, what is one word to describe how you are feeling right now, how you are sensing right now? I'll change my language to be yours.
Kathy Taylor (01:01:19.358)
I am energized right now. I'm very energized from this conversation. So thank you very much.
Reese Brown (01:01:27.544)
Thank you, Cathy. I cannot thank you enough for your generosity of time, energy, and your lovely expertise. This has been so fulfilling, and I am so excited to share it with people.
Kathy Taylor (01:01:39.272)
Thank you very much, Reese.
Reese Brown (01:01:44.92)
Thank you so, so much, Kathy.