Connection Breeds Joy, Creates Growth, and Unleashes Your Highest Self with Psychologist Dr. Adam Dorsay
Reese Brown (01:45.336)
The synchronicities. Okay. Yes. Well, we will just dive right in after all of our intros, but Adam, thank you so very much for joining me today. I am so excited to be having this conversation with you and talk a little bit more about your book, Super Psyched, and just get to chat and hear more about everything it is that you're doing.
Adam Dorsay (02:10.902)
And Reese, just getting to know you in the green room and getting to understand that you're not just saying meaning life and cohere. You're also living it. You're doing things that you're, I mean, you're, walking the w I forget how they say, is it walking the walk or walking the talk? You're doing whatever it is that they say you're doing that.
Reese Brown (02:32.33)
thank you. That is very, very kind and definitely something I strive to do. And I will throw the compliment right back and also ask you just to start our conversation on a good foot. What's something you're grateful for right now?
Adam Dorsay (02:51.056)
I am just when you see the word grateful, the first thing is not a thing. It's my it's actually a person and that would be my wife. And I know it sounds corny, but I swear to you, you know, what we appreciate appreciates and the degree to which I appreciate her regularly externally and internally, she people sometimes like, does she know and like, does she know she knows that she is absolutely totally adored. Without her.
Reese Brown (02:58.776)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (03:20.932)
And if you read the book, you'll see that she is the, you know, one of the pivotal characters who basically helped me figure out life for my own, for myself. I, she, she supported me in becoming a psychologist later in life. And she's been my rock. She's
I, anyway, I'm just, can't, without getting too into the weeds about how much I'm grateful for her, she's the one I think of.
Reese Brown (03:52.532)
No, that's absolutely beautiful. as
I can't imagine a more that truly reminds me of the word partnership, right? And all that that should be and mean, it is appreciating and in that appreciation growing together and helping each other grow. And you've beautifully led us into the next question that I always like to start with, with my guests, which is what is your story? Of course, that is an expansive question.
Whatever you feel called to answer or speak to in this moment about your story is exactly right and I'm excited to hear it.
Adam Dorsay (04:36.004)
Well, it's funny because I wrote a book about connection and all of us were born to connect. I mean, from the very first second as babies, the first thing we do is connect. are hopefully on our mother's chest and eventually receiving nutrients from her. And almost everything in our lives come that is not awesome, comes from a component of disconnection.
I was born to connect. My mom describes pushing me in a stroller and saying like she'd never seen a baby who was more like curious and looking around and like trying to like trying to connect with people. And that has been my dictate throughout life. And here was the here was the rub. I was a crappy connector when I was a kid. Not only that, I just did not know how to socially engage. was awkward. had
learning disability and ADHD and anxiety and all kinds of but I really really hungered to connect so if you can imagine I go to a new school in second grade I was no scholastic superstar I made my way from kind of the so-called gifted class all the way down to special education where I marinated for the next four-ish years thinking I was what the kids called back in the in in those days very long time ago they called
me mentally retarded and that was what they'd say to my face and I was awkward and I wanted friends so badly I remember in second grade inviting my the boys just like going through the list of the boys and their phone numbers we had those back then in the directory like somebody to come over to play I got rejected by all of them and my mom was sitting there watching me on the phone awkwardly trying to
get some connection, get some company. And it took me a long time to kind of figure out the social mores, how to speak. It's funny, English is my first language, but there ought to be like a friendship as a first language or second language, like how to do that. And the words you use and the words you definitely don't use, I did not know those and I had to learn those over time. Thankfully, my parents had the...
Adam Dorsay (06:56.022)
insight that I needed to go to a smaller school with a better teacher to student ratio. And I started showing signs of a modicum of intelligence. I was actually beginning to do fairly well and, and, but I still hadn't really recovered from this notion that I was mentally deficient. And that would take many, many years for me to even begin to overcome. didn't read really any books in high school. They were just painfully hard. think I read
Of mice and men at one point, which is a shortish book. Um, but outside that, not really anything until I get to college. I kind of BS my way through. I read the notes was those were maybe called spark notes today, but summaries and I pretend to read the book and write a book report on it. And I got through it in college. I discovered very quickly. You couldn't do that. And thankfully along the way in my life, I've met various mentors. In this case, it was Dr. Alan Greenberger.
Reese Brown (07:35.278)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (07:55.504)
I after my first just horrible semester, I had a 2.2 GPA. I was not showing signs that this was going well. I walk into Dr. Alan Greenberger's office and I knew he was the most popular of professors. My buddy David Strauss and my father also knew about him. Both of them said, talk to this guy. He's like the Yoda. So I hit him up on Friday. I'm his last walk in during his office hours. I say Dr. Greenberger.
Reese Brown (08:03.734)
You
Adam Dorsay (08:24.584)
I'm thinking about dropping out of college and he said, okay, say more. And I said, well, you know, I don't think I appreciate enough and I think I should probably just, you know, I should leave. And the short story is he said, listen, I think you should leave if you want to leave, but if you want to continue this conversation, you know, I'll be in on Monday. So I left and I thought about it I realized the reason I was struggling so much as I had never read a book.
really read a book. I'd read the clips notes but my the grooves in my brain were not yet able to tolerate the cognitive load of sitting down and the attention span for the ADHD to read this thing. I walk into his office and I said Dr. Greenberger I have the solution. He said what's that? And I said I'd love to do a tiny independent study a third of a credit. We had you know a class with
at that school is one credit. said, just a third where I read a book a week and you and I meet in a sign time for an hour and the book cannot exist on clips notes because I will, I I'm a, I'm an, I'm an addict. I will use them. And there was no internet so I couldn't use that back in those days. And so he said that, you know, I've been teaching for a long time. That is definitely the weirdest proposal I've had. And I'm in, and he said, here's your first book. He hands me a book.
Reese Brown (09:34.51)
I will do that.
Adam Dorsay (09:52.483)
by a Japanese existentialist. His name was Kobo Abe or Abe Kobo. And I felt my brain go from the off position to the on position. I read that book. I was not going to let my Mr. Miyagi, my Yoda, my Obi-Wan Kenobi down. I read this in this little, it was called Benji's. It was like a Denny's, but they had unlimited coffee. So I was self-medicating with coffee.
I'm not joking when I say that 240 page book took me at least 20 hours to read. And I could feel, I mean, it was just so weird, I mean, to describe this, but I could feel my brain turning on reading these words of this brilliant Japanese existentialist author and writing notes. And I was, mean, when I came to his office, I mean, there were pages upon pages of notes and I'd read it carefully.
Reese Brown (10:37.006)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (10:50.35)
People often misuse the word peruse. People think it means to kind of browse. It actually means to read very carefully. I perused. I read it carefully. I was not going let my Mr. Miyagi down who was putting, you know, he put his faith in me. And it was that relationship more than anything that kind of, yeah, I'm going to call it midwifed me into reading and
Reese Brown (11:06.254)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (11:16.75)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (11:17.892)
I'm still a crap reader. mean, I still read very slowly. It's embarrassing when my wife and I are sharing and reading something side by side. She's done, you know, twice as fast as I am. And I'm like, neurotypical. Look at her go. How nice for you. And how embarrassing for me, but
Reese Brown (11:32.686)
Yeah.
Adam Dorsay (11:41.066)
intellectual curiosity which was ravenous. I was so hungry for knowledge at that time was being fed by some of the greatest thinkers of all time. read you know Siddhartha by Herman Hess. We read various books that just made me so happy to read having these conversations with these brilliant I mean obviously one-way conversations with these brilliant thinkers and and pouring over them with coffee coming out my ears.
Reese Brown (11:58.83)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (12:11.416)
Then I went to Japan. I lived there for a while and I only realized recently one of the big drivers of why I went to Japan, in addition to the fact that the place is awesome, one of the reasons I went there was to learn Japanese and to basically have irrefutable evidence that there was some intelligence between my ears. I needed to show my family, if I could speak Japanese, that would be a sign.
Reese Brown (12:33.368)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (12:40.78)
And so I lived over there. I spoke the language fairly well. I still speak it. It's a part of it's a part of me, which is funny because I'm obviously Mediterranean blooded and, you know, tall and hairy and all that stuff. So to hear me speaking Japanese is kind of almost like a circus act. But I love it. And the culture meant the world to me and it informed me. And it also turned my brain on even more because Japan
some ways could not be more different than where I grew up. Philosophically, sociologically, in terms of the mores and the culture, just really got it, I over learned the way to comport oneself. Because in Japan there's no, you're thinking about how am I behaving in this context all the time. So that deficiency that I had as a child, it's almost an idlerian notion of
Reese Brown (13:25.902)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (13:39.864)
I was aiming to go from inferiority to some form of what Adler described as superiority. Not like, I'm superior, but no, internal superiority. Feeling like, okay, I've mastered something that I sucked at. And that was really important to me. please listen or don't think I went from inferiority to superiority. Like, hey, look at me on my high horse. No, it was not like that. It was just trying to master something that had really troubled me in the past.
Reese Brown (13:55.896)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (14:09.614)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Dorsay (14:10.82)
at 27, I was finally diagnosed with ADHD. it was a big moment in my life. The doctor said, what are we talking about? You definitely have it. here's the, here's the, here's the prescription, go to Long's drugs and go ahead and get it filled and we'll, we'll talk next week. And so I take 10 milligrams of this, this substance Ritalin. And it was so strange for me because with ADHD, I knew
Reese Brown (14:21.582)
haha
Adam Dorsay (14:40.292)
the brain that I had was not going to be the brain that I wanted as the father I wanted to be or the husband I hope to be or the person, uh, the vocational, the employee I wanted to be. I I was in the corporate world at that time and I take this, this, this medication and in the parking lot, I had this, I decided not to drive for a bit just to see like what happens. This is your brain on Ritalin and 30 minutes later, totally in that 30 minutes later was just like,
Reese Brown (14:47.054)
Mmm
Reese Brown (15:04.597)
Wait, right?
Adam Dorsay (15:09.774)
this is what a normal brain feels like. I swear to you, that's what it felt like. So I've had this odd, you know, relationship with my brain over these years, as I'm describing it to you. and for the next five years, I put myself through a self induced, you know, kind of executive coach, executive functioning, coaching, training so that I could learn the things that I needed to learn. And I would not have learned them as well without the Ritalin. And I got to the point where no one would know I had ADHD.
Reese Brown (15:17.166)
You
Reese Brown (15:34.252)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (15:39.876)
There was prior to that people would definitely know. But afterward, I wanted it to be that no one would know. And to this day, that's pretty much the situation no one would know. And there are moments when I know, there are moments when my wife knows. She definitely can see my monkey mind at times. But...
Reese Brown (15:56.846)
Sure, sure.
Adam Dorsay (16:05.188)
And then I would say the other big thing in my life was finding my wife. And that is, you know, I had some relationships and I don't know if you've ever seen that movie with John Cusack, uh, high fidelity where he goes through his relationships. You've seen it. And I had a John Cusack moment. It was after a relationship with a lovely person just to was fantastic, but not, I was not her person. She was not my person for sure. And I just.
Reese Brown (16:18.433)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (16:31.616)
Not your person. Yep.
Adam Dorsay (16:34.884)
kind of wrote out the list of like who I was looking for. I wanted for once not to be led with my heart or other organs. I wanted to be led by my brain when I chose this person because it had to make sense. I had this insight that if this is going to work, there are certain certain qualities in a person and I know from real life experience that work and certain that don't work. So I came up with a list of the non-negotiables and the would be importance.
Reese Brown (16:45.634)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (17:03.568)
and would be nice kind of three columns.
It was unbelievable. I found my person who like it's a full body. Yes. Like everything about her is, is right. And that was a big pivotal moment in my life. was still vocationally kind of handicapped. I was not in the location of my choosing. was the one that was available at the time I was in sales and ultimately, with her encouragement, and some frustration.
Reese Brown (17:19.063)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (17:40.19)
and some kind coercion from my buddy Aaron, who was already a psychologist. I went back to graduate school, earned my doctorate during nights and weekends, and tendered my resignation, and made $10 an hour for two years with no benefits. And in the midst of this, I had two sons who I absolutely adore. And...
I'd say that is my story up until now where I became a psychologist and started doing all the things that you probably are mentioning in my intro and blah, blah. And I'm very happy with having found this. It's been quite a Maslowian, I don't know if you can say that Maslowian pursuit, like trying to ascend the hierarchy of needs. really have been so grateful that I've had that opportunity in this life. I don't take it for granted a single second.
Reese Brown (18:17.292)
Yup.
Reese Brown (18:24.28)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (18:35.892)
Absolutely. Thank you so much for your openness and your vulnerability. truly, every time I hear someone's story, there's something magic about it. And you mentioned this in your book about how on your podcast, actually, you interview people and you've had several guests say, why do you want to interview me? I don't have anything to say. Everyone has a story to tell and
I think that that is just so true. And anyone you ask that question to, you're going to get magic back. So thank you so much for sharing that with me. And I actually want to go back to the brain symbol you use throughout your story, because I think it's actually a deeply helpful one to think of this brain turning on, that even with your experience with ADHD, perhaps
the brain being able to slow down as well in some ways as it's turning on or power down and rest and just the balance of these things. Do you find now, was there ever a point where you feel like the turning on experience stopped or has it continued to progress in what on feels like for your brain?
Adam Dorsay (20:01.73)
In every which way, and this sounds almost like a mantra in every which way, every day I'm learning and I go through life with a, you know, on my website, it says, you know, dradamdorsey.com, but I think of it more as a dradamdorsey.edu. And I like to think everybody can learn something every day. In my family, we have a structure at dinnertime when we ask, you know, for the rosebud and the thorn, like what was good that
Reese Brown (20:31.327)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Dorsay (20:31.46)
happened today. What did you learn today is the bud and the thorn is what what hurt today. And I have this voracious appetite to learn and I'll there's a Japanese saying, you know, consult everyone even your knees. And I believe that that's important like to consult everyone I consult my my 16 year old son has saved me from many a train wreck. When I was thinking about I was thinking about doing this solo episode.
Reese Brown (20:36.718)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (20:55.726)
Dude.
Adam Dorsay (21:00.664)
where I recorded it I thought it was pretty good. And my son was like, no, that is, let me tell you why it's crap. And I was like, thank you. Thank you. And I agreed. was not to be released. But my wife, my sons, my dog, the people who come and see me, the clients who I see, I call them just people. don't like the word patient or clients. I prefer just calling them.
Reese Brown (21:09.912)
Thank you for your honesty.
Adam Dorsay (21:29.474)
the people who come to see me. But they're, brilliant and they tell me about their world. And I enter that world. It's almost like, it's almost like inception in a way, like getting to walk into somebody's experience. I'm learning all the time from these people who have, like you just said, everyone has a story. So I love the Japanese notion of Kaizen, which is like micro improvements over time. Like
Reese Brown (21:44.344)
Mm.
Reese Brown (21:58.316)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Dorsay (21:58.82)
could be as minute as moving the trash can to a better spot and looking at life that way. I do try to live that way and learn and make tomorrow better than yesterday. I try to use myself as the basis of comparison because I've learned that trying to compare myself to others is a losing battle. But if I can compare myself to me today versus me tomorrow versus me yesterday, that's a pretty cool thing to look at.
It's my aim every podcast to learn a ton. I just interviewed my cousin who is in a wheelchair, sadly, because while walking through Central Park, a 120 pound branch hit his head. And he was telling me about life in a wheelchair. And there are 99 things I did not know that I learned from that. I'm obviously borrowing from Jay Z as I say 99 things, but
but this is, it was, it was, and every, every interview I have on my podcast, these people, you know, they share their subjective experience or, or the research on a thing. And to say I'm super psyched is an understatement. mean, I'm totally like, this is everything I want. I just want to learn about stuff and I'm learning from you and, you know, just how you have just in our brief interaction.
Reese Brown (23:16.344)
Great.
Reese Brown (23:20.568)
Yeah.
Adam Dorsay (23:27.8)
how this young, inspiring woman has decided to go off to Florence, one of my favorite places on the planet, and you're doing it. You're not just talking about and dreaming about it like someday. You actually decided to quit the rubber to the road. So I'm just like, I'm learning from you.
Reese Brown (23:45.962)
That truly is so kind. I think, I mean, to draw that into our conversation, one of the things that I talk about a lot and that I think this move really challenged me to do and in life continues to challenge me to do is put your money where your mouth is. And like you said earlier, like you're talking to talk about how are you walking the walk? And I think that that is for...
listeners to the show, will know I talk about coherence a lot. But to me, that is coherence when our dreamed life meets our lived reality. That is when we are living in coherence. And it sounds like for you, this dream life is being a lifelong learner. And your story really speaks to this idea of how you learned how to be a learner. And in the process of that kind of the being is becoming.
in that, right? And the becoming was the being too. And one thing that I have to go back to just because my formal education is in philosophy, and you mentioned existentialism from the Japanese existentialist author that was one of the first books that you ever perused.
Adam Dorsay (25:09.12)
Haha
Reese Brown (25:11.22)
And of course, I caught some maybe Nietzsche and maybe some Heidegger references thrown in there as well. I don't know what your experience with philosophy is, but there were some echoes there in your story. Where do you find that this love of learning comes from? And how does that tie into the existentialist notion of us needing to affirm our own life?
Why is learning an innate piece of that puzzle for so many people? And why do you think that is one of the tools that you have used for this affirmation of being and becoming Adam Dorsey?
Adam Dorsay (25:59.758)
Well, it's interesting. We've actually researched what are human virtues? What are the values that have been important throughout time? And I love positive psychology. I'm so grateful to Martin Seligman and Christopher Peterson, who headed up this massive undertaking somewhere on 1998. And one of the things they did was they classified virtues that were valued throughout time, regardless of
Reese Brown (26:06.435)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (26:26.756)
country or culture or religion, etc, etc, etc. It was an interdisciplinary team of sociologists, psychologists, anthropologists, theologians, etc. They came up with 24 virtues that were rock solid that couldn't diminish another person could only empower them. And one of them was curiosity. And certainly, you know, neurophysiologically, we get these hits of
Reese Brown (26:48.376)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (26:56.224)
yummy, yummy chemicals like dopamine. When we learn something, it's like, my gosh, well, it's like, he's so exciting. AJ Jacobs, who's one of my favorite people on the planet, if you haven't read his work, it's like it's a must read. I'm obsessed with him. I would love to be called an AJ Jacobs scholar because he's he's that crossroads between hilarity and absolute curiosity brilliance. And he puts himself through
real philosophical rubber meets the road queries throughout his books. And he writes about these just unbelievable undertakings.
Reese Brown (27:31.022)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (27:39.48)
But I would say that the algorithm that he shared with me, and I would love to write it out, but it's basically, if you can imagine, a question mark, and then a right-facing arrow, and then an exclamation point. Now, if you can imagine that question mark, right-facing arrow, exclamation point, this is the sequence. There is a question. And then there's the processing of the question. And then there's the aha. Now, sometimes there's no aha. Sometimes it's a fluid.
Like, that is a working answer for now and next week the answer is different or that is one of the many answers that the blind people touching the elephant, if you know that allegory, come up with. The five blind people touching an elephant, each one convinced that they know what the elephant is. One of them touching the trunk saying it's hose, the elephant is hose-like and one of them touching, you know, a leg saying it's tree trunk-like and so on.
Reese Brown (28:11.554)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Dorsay (28:34.72)
we do we do that and that's why that that allegory has lasted throughout time and I know that there is no truth with a capital T I mean I just have if it exists I think that that is a rigid non non-learning mindset it's like this is the answer we have for now and it's just really it's really fascinating to me it's one of the reasons why I actually think
that idea when it first was handed to me, I did not like it, but I come to adore it. Questions are so much more important than answers. Answers are temporary. Questions are permanent. Like you can always ask somebody what's important to you. And if you ask them when they're 10 years old, you'll get a very different answer at 20 and 30 and 40. Great question. It's a permanent question. What's important to you? It's an open question. What do you value? And
Reese Brown (29:09.644)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (29:26.19)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (29:32.526)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (29:32.876)
The question remains the same, but the answers are different. And that's why I think curiosity, inquisitiveness is eternal. And we will, we will all die not knowing a whole bunch of stuff. We will barely scratch the surface. But man, if how rich that surface can be. If you can appreciate what you've got, it's in terms of like the knowledge, it can be just so joyful.
Reese Brown (29:35.576)
Right.
Reese Brown (30:03.438)
Truly, it really, really can.
you've just picked up on something in my own life that like the joy of doing this podcast and listening to people's stories is making meaning in and of itself. And part of why I selected the title for this program and it just the brain expansion that continues to occur throughout one's life.
I want to go back to the notion that you just said about how there is no truth with a capital T. One of my favorite portions of Super Psyched, your book was when you dove into connection. So for listeners who maybe are unfamiliar with Super Psyched, the
subtitle after the semicolon is Unleash the power of the four types of connection and live the life you love and Throughout the book you explore the four types of connection which are connection to the self Connection to the other connection to you. Is it community or the world? the world Which includes community that's right and then connection to something greater than yourself and When you dive into connection with something greater than yourself
Adam Dorsay (31:22.82)
It's the world, which includes community.
Reese Brown (31:35.314)
That is always just such a juicy question to me. And I, this truth of the capital T question always comes up for me in the idea of connection to something greater than ourselves. Do you think that there is an argument to be made that even though perhaps in this lifetime, in our lived reality, there can be no truth of the capital T that we have a full understanding of?
that somewhere there is a truth with a capital T if it is even that that truth is there is no truth that that one is still written with a capital T or stay curious or
Always ask the question, right? Is there something there hidden within it that could be, or do you reject that notion?
Adam Dorsay (32:30.21)
I think that there is our subjective truths with capital T's. think that we walk through life. I'd like to amend that and say, and I can't say that there is no truth with a capital T. Perhaps there is. and, but I will say that my subjective truth that my wife and my children matter, that, that feels like a truth with a capital T subjectively to me, but I can't impose that on everyone. There's some people.
Reese Brown (32:34.072)
Sure.
Reese Brown (32:41.485)
right?
Adam Dorsay (32:58.798)
don't or might not but those are my truths with a capital t and i think that one of the things that i'm trying to do is help people find their truths and here's the interesting thing because we evolve sometimes a truth that seemed like it was a truth of the capital t like when i was in high school like my temporary truth one of my temporary truths was you got to wear the cool threads like you got to show up fashionable now i just i
I like to dress nicely. want to I don't want to look like crap, but I but that is not my that is that was a that was a fluid temporary truth. And our values change like what's important to you over time. But what I'm hoping this book will do is help people find their as close to capital T truths as possible, even if they're temporary truth, but what allows them to feel alive now the word connect.
Reese Brown (33:32.172)
Right.
Reese Brown (33:49.889)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (33:56.99)
is not well defined in the dictionary. Look it up in the Webster's dictionary. It's somewhat akin to almost like two train cars connecting. I mean, there's more than that, but not much. And then if you look in the American Psychological Association's definition, it's also lacking. And I consulted 10 folks, one of whom actually is a brilliant psychologist out in Dallas, Harville Hendricks. was part of the, you know, the
Reese Brown (33:58.892)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Dorsay (34:24.836)
group of mental health practitioners who helped me define the word connection as I as I meant it for the book. I believe I have a truth of the capital T as it relates to connection. I have a working definition. And I think the term working definition is is a good one for a lot of things in life. Like I have a working definition of my workout program, but that could change. But the working definition includes such things as coming alive, its vitality, its life force.
Reese Brown (34:30.573)
Mm.
Reese Brown (34:35.598)
Sure. Yes.
Reese Brown (34:47.18)
Right, right?
Adam Dorsay (34:54.52)
And you know it when you have it. I mean, I'm guessing that when you walk the streets of Florence, your body felt something and aliveness. And it was like, you know, we were talking about the Greek roots of a cohere, a cojade, to be in connected in harmony. Like what a great term. I'm also thinking of the term vocation, which I learned, James Hollis told me it comes from the term vocatus.
which is a calling and you were called, you were called and you felt a coherence with this place and it was your truth of the capital T for now. And it could be that you end up going to Japan at some point and fall in love with it too. And it has, you know, each of these places are great teachers. if you let them be, a lot of people, you know, and I don't be, I'm not throwing shade at folks who just travel for hedonic pleasure.
Reese Brown (35:25.934)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (35:44.077)
Right.
Adam Dorsay (35:53.912)
But I would also suggest that maybe read about the place, maybe get to know the place deeply and make it a deeper affair. Like I visited Cuba and I read a ton about the history and it was so trippy, so different from anything. The way, I mean, the history was so kind of tragic and violent and tough and you know, what, what transpired in the revolution and the effects on
Reese Brown (36:01.964)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (36:22.872)
people who live there. Like it made the trip, it was a brief affair, it was 10 days, but it made it far deeper and it was inspired by curiosity and the desire to feel more a sense of an aliveness and connection with that place rather than it just being a hedonic place like, isn't the music pretty and the food delicious? Which is fine, but maybe we can go a little bit deeper and like one of the things that really captured me about the way that you've
Reese Brown (36:37.143)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (36:42.83)
Great.
Adam Dorsay (36:52.452)
been taken by Florence is you have let it take you. You have, it's almost been a full body experience. Yes, the food is delicious. Yes, the music is beautiful. Yes, everything around me, all the architecture. And it's almost like this place has entered you and you have become stronger and more connected to it and more connected to parts of yourself that you wouldn't have had if you weren't there. So one of the things that's interesting, you mentioned
Reese Brown (36:56.642)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (37:21.156)
your folks are in the mental health profession. So you know about the DSM, which is our diagnostic and statistical manual, which contains all of the descriptions at very, very granular levels of anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, trauma disorders. Well, I shouldn't say trauma disorders because it's under the anxiety disorders, but PTSD and things like that. But if you look at all of them, depression is a disconnection because we are thinking about the past. We are not really present.
Often it's a component of it. I should say and a component of anxiety is Not being connected with the present because we're future tripping Catastrophizing worrying So we're not connected. It's a component of it many anxiety disorders including trauma In trauma, we can be dissociated. We're not connected disconnection disconnection disconnection psychosis Disconnection from reality itself. It can be can described as that. So disconnection is a common denominator through
all the things that we don't want. And connection is at the heart of everything we want. And I would even go so far as saying, at least this is my, this is my truth for now, that it is the precursor to everything we want. Now there are times that we need to disconnect as a temporary coping strategy. When I'm getting a blood draw, I don't love it. So I definitely try to bring myself somewhere else. I'm not saying that there aren't
Reese Brown (38:32.599)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (38:45.814)
circumstances under which you might wish did not be connected. But I'm but I am saying that being comfortably numb as Pink Floyd sings is not a way to go through life. This dash between our birth date and our death date, I would much more prescribe doing what you're doing Reese and that is like, hey, I'm living it. I'm feeling alive. There's a vitality. I'm going there.
Reese Brown (38:56.781)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (39:09.87)
Firstly, with your description of Florence and my move here, absolutely. Taking the words right out of my mouth. And I completely agree with what you're saying about travel as well. And the way that we can connection.
Of course, you've broken it up into four very helpful categories. But I think thinking of the specific ways that things can connect as well is also very fascinating. And you do this within the book too. connecting to like you're talking about with Cuba, a place's history and a people and a culture. These are all forces of connection and culture is about connection and the way people connect and communicate. And I
think a lot of what you were talking about there in the calling to this place is a calling to learn a different dimension of connection, right? That it's these people connect with their land, their ancestors, their religion, spiritualities, their history themselves very differently than we do, than people in any other place does. I think that probably also goes back to both of our fascination with someone's individual story.
because it's how they have connected through everything in their own life. And I also really love the way you're linguistically talking about this word connection. Definitions are so important because the way we use words matter. And so one of my questions almost always for a guest that's using a big word like connection.
especially if they're an author is what does that mean to you? And so I love that you've provided this just in the framework and the fabric of Super Psyched. Another word that I want to ask because you talk about the idea of authentic connection. And I read that and I was like, I know exactly what Adam means by authentic connection. Cause I felt authentic connection and I have felt inauthentic connection.
Reese Brown (41:25.614)
But I also want to ask, linguistically, but also bodily and maybe in this Phelps sense, what does authentic connection mean and why was that a helpful term you chose to include as well?
Adam Dorsay (41:41.124)
So, am loving this interview and I just love your questions. Let's start with just the basic diagram. So, we've got the word defined connection as I intended and was considered valid by nine other practitioners who looked at it and said, yes, this seems on point based on my clinical and life experience.
I took it a little bit further. So if you can imagine four circles that are rippling out from within, there's an internal circle, it's almost like a target. That's self. Like, how do we connect to ourselves is the primary driver of all the connections. An authentic connection requires that we are authentic. If we walk through life,
Let's just, I'm going to do something really innocuous. Let's imagine this guy was told, you know what? You're an accountant. You're, you're born to be an accountant. You should be an accountant. You're good at math, but he really, really loves music and he wishes more than anything that he could play, you know, in an awesome band. He's, he's a, he's a rhythm man. He's a bass man. He wants to be part of the rhythm section for a awesome, like heavy metal band. He is not living his authentic self. Now he could, if he loves.
the the this this job it'll be fine but because we can love more than one thing and find multiple vocations but let's say he doesn't let's say he is faking it and his eight-hour days at work feel more like 30-hour days and he dreads Mondays as they roll around it's like walking through life with shoes that just don't fit or walking through life with rocks in our shoes
Reese Brown (43:25.6)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (43:27.972)
We need to be connected with who we are, what we're about. We could, a lot of us marry partners and we, we, we marry them with this idea that I hope it will be okay, but we know there are problems. And in fact, there are such big problems that this probably is not going to make it. And I work with so many people come to my office and like, you know what, when I got down on a knee, I knew I shouldn't have. And here they are in midlife.
with a custody evaluation and trying to figure out like, what did they, you know, thinking backwards, like, what did I miss? And what did I miss was they didn't spend enough time spelunking into their truths and rendering a temporarily uncomfortable truth and saying, you know what, I think we'd be better off seeing other people. But instead the guy may have been told, you know, by his friends or someone else, or perhaps the partner themselves, you know,
Reese Brown (43:58.606)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (44:17.422)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Dorsay (44:26.092)
make your decision now the term you know excuse the language shit or get off the pot is used and for a long-term decision with multiple consequences this is not one that should be made in haste it should really be carefully analyzed does this make sense and that's part of the authentic connection that you're talking about is this is this is there more than love here I mean love
is great, but being able to work through things is also necessary. Is that also there within this connection? And that's what I see is like if my office was a game of Family Feud, my number one answer of what perplexes me is relationship is the top thing. Relationship then comes work and then comes...
Reese Brown (45:01.539)
Yeah.
Adam Dorsay (45:20.352)
Money and health, those are kind of the big ones. And all of them relate to authentic connection, if you think about it. Love and work, a relationship with money. Am I buying this thing because I really genuinely want it and it will give me some value? am I buying it because I'm told I should have it? By some, whether it's the media or my friends or who knows what. We all do things that we know are not really consistent with who we are. Now, that being said.
Reese Brown (45:36.366)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (45:49.676)
There are times when we need to stretch our definitions of who we are. In my book, I talk about a very smart young woman who threw down the idea of I'm not the kind of person who blanks. It might be I'm not the kind of person who talks to the person next to me in line at the, you know, at Starbucks. And she's stretching that. She's like, I'm not the kind of person who talks to people.
next to me at Starbucks, but I'm going to talk to the person next to me at Starbucks because I want to be a little bit stretched on the introversion to extroversion spectrum. I'm not the kind of person who wakes up early in the morning and goes for a run, but I want to stretch my definition of myself. Now we have within us oceans and we can stretch the definition of who we are. So I'm not suggesting that authentic connection is a static entity. It's we can challenge it. My father hilariously, and he's
Reese Brown (46:28.215)
Right.
Adam Dorsay (46:48.832)
one of the people who was on my podcast and he said he had nothing to say and he delivered one of the best episodes of all time. was like, just unbelievable. mean, he's my working definition of stretching your identity constantly. He's hitting it hard. But I remember when I was 10 years old, he was not into watching sports. He was kind of a Frasier Crane type, kind of very, you know, erudite, well dressed, goes to the opera.
Reese Brown (46:55.574)
It's not how it always is. Yeah.
Reese Brown (47:05.23)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (47:17.176)
You know, he's into high culture and I was like, I want to go, I want to go see the San Francisco giants. And he said, I am not really interested, but I'll go cause I'm a good dad. So he went with me and it took him a game or two and he was hooked so hooked that he became like a rabid giants fan and he did not even realize that ocean existed within him. and he's, he's been my role model in just like stretching, like who you are. And I love.
Reese Brown (47:38.414)
Great.
Reese Brown (47:45.722)
I love that. I think...
Adam Dorsay (47:46.569)
that rather than becoming kind of closed down, he's just, Hey, let's see what else, what else I could find joy in.
Reese Brown (47:54.336)
Yes, that's so beautiful in what other avenues that you can access to peruse oneself, right? Like the joy of life. But I think also in that example you just used, it's so beautiful that yes, this one piece that he did not have in being a sports fan, but he did have this piece of himself that is, am a good dad.
Adam Dorsay (48:03.072)
Hahaha!
Adam Dorsay (48:23.721)
Mm-hmm. That's right.
Reese Brown (48:24.266)
And identifying with that aspect of self actually brought in these new pieces of authenticity, right? Like actually owning that piece of authenticity expanded what his authenticity can be and can look like, which I think speaks to the power of this work that you're doing. Another piece of the book that I think is
fabulous and every single book that is psychology, sociology, self-help, personal growth, whatever genre you want to cage these style of books in. Every book should have this, but you provide exercises, provide practices, you provide things for people to go out and try and
Again, like coherence, right? Where does the rubber meet the road? How did you develop these exercises to be really grounded into this work? Because I think as someone who tends to get very in my head, very academic and over analytical with things, especially if I was writing a book, I would think I would just get really locked into the way that this should look.
air quotes for listeners who maybe aren't watching, and not think about the different dimensions of what a book can take that is, how can someone actually adopt this into their life? Talk to me about the practices that you include.
Adam Dorsay (50:07.62)
Sure. these practices were a byproduct of about 20,000 hours of being a therapist, being a podcaster, talking to really, really smart people, reading a lot and just talking to really cool people in my own life, but just really, really a fusion of all of that information about vitality. Like what brings us alive? What could be some of the components that could help spark and kindle the fire of
real connection within ourselves, connecting to others, connecting to the world and connecting to something greater. And by the way, something greater does not necessarily mean religion for some people it does. For some people it means going to, you know, the Grand Canyon and saying, wow, like, I'm experiencing awe, which is a topic unto itself, but it is falls into the something greater circle. But these practices were
Reese Brown (50:47.277)
Right.
Adam Dorsay (51:07.658)
work again not the truth of the capital T mean to borrow from a fella who lived around the corner from you about four or five hundred years ago I think his name was something like Leo DaVinci a really cool dude he said Leonardo DaVinci once said you know art is never finished only abandoned and so I came up with the best art I could come up with art and science and I use scientifically validated ideas from a dbt practitioner really grateful to Dr Matthew McKay who shared with me his
Reese Brown (51:26.158)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (51:37.676)
his list of activities that we could kind of look at as possible primes. They are not the destinations but they prime the mind and ask us like huh what am I actually doing versus what do I wish I was doing? Reese, it almost sounds like I'm belaboring the point that you're in Florence but I can't talk about it quite enough because you are the living example of what this book is talking about. It's
Reese Brown (52:06.094)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (52:06.724)
It's talking about the idea of how am I using my one non renewable resource of time, I can lose my health and get back, I can lose my money and get it back, but I can't lose my time and get it back. And here you are saying, I'm going to be in control of my time and go over to Florence. And I'm going to live this thing and rather than talk about this thing. I mean, I so, so many tragic stories of people who one day, maybe kind of might, but we know that hope is not a strategy. got to
Reese Brown (52:17.528)
Yeah.
Adam Dorsay (52:36.516)
put it into play. got to do the thing. And that's what this book is about. It's looking at our lives. How are we using our time? And if we actually saw ourselves on video, we'd get a little pukey because most of us are wasting time on social media, on things that don't really matter. And then we think, well, we have endless time except for the fact that we really don't.
Just a little south of you, there's a town called Rome where the conquering leader would be told memento mori. Remind yourself that you are mortal and you will die. And I just interviewed a lovely woman by the name of Jody Wellman. She wrote a book called You Only Die Once and she talks about how many Mondays do we actually have? We don't have that many Mondays. And it seems like it's, you know, life is an endless journey and endless summer. It's not.
Reese Brown (53:27.96)
Mm-mm.
Adam Dorsay (53:28.612)
again a little north of you there's a guy who wrote a little a little diddy called Four Seasons and he based it on a person's life of if all the the whole Four Seasons idea is about the fact that we go through seasons of life and you can hear like how they resonate existentially anyway i'm getting really heady here i don't mean to be but that's just how i roll and but authentic connection in this way in the activities and looking at
Reese Brown (53:41.838)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Dorsay (53:57.646)
How am I using my time versus how do I wish I was using my time? Is there a chasm between what I say and what I do? Is there a chasm between, my, like the things I could do, which would be awesome. And the things I'm actually doing because, you know, in to borrow from Dwight Eisenhower, who said there are quadrants of urgent versus important. We're, we're often attending to the urgent, like everything seems urgent, but are we actually doing what's important? Are we going?
Reese Brown (54:00.782)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (54:26.808)
to Florence, are we doing whatever that is? we looking at our children carefully while they're at this age because they're going to be this age for five seconds? I was told it was a blink of the eye when I dropped my older son off in college, I realized, my God, everybody told me it was going to be a blink of the eye, but I thought, nah, nah. And there have been moments when I mean, captured on video where I was pushing him in a swing and I was looking at my phone.
And if you go into any restaurant, you will see families sitting across from each other, all four of them on their phones. This is a tragedy in action. I'm not pointing my finger at them. I've done these things, but are we living as we say we want to be living? Can we put that phone away? Can we look and gaze into the other person's eyes and learn about their lives and know them? Can we be, can we also be known by them?
Reese Brown (54:54.218)
and
Reese Brown (55:18.262)
Hmm.
Adam Dorsay (55:24.36)
fellow by the name of Hugh Grubb, Dr. Hugh Grubb, a colleague of mine, rendered something that came from Winnicott. We can't find it in the writings, but it allegedly come from him. If it didn't, I'm going to paraphrase it regardless because I think it's so beautiful. And apparently Donald Winnicott, who's one of the great British psychoanalysts said, true mental health can be exhibited by one's willingness to share their experience with another and to take in the experience of another. And that is authentic connection with another.
Reese Brown (55:54.616)
Wow.
Adam Dorsay (55:54.724)
And that is how we want to be spending our 86,400 seconds a day, you know, like doing the real stuff, at least we can't do it all the time. Of course we're going to associate. I'm going to play my wordle in the morning. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm to say happy birthday to people on Facebook, but that's literally, I pretty much use Facebook only for happy birthdays and posting my stuff and sometimes hitting a like on a thing or two, but it's under five minutes a day. I've really decided to go on a diet. I don't want to get lost there.
because I know they want me there. And I don't necessarily want to be used by them. I will use them. But one of my dictates also is create more, consume less.
Reese Brown (56:25.571)
yeah.
Reese Brown (56:34.286)
Absolutely. think, yes, yes, yes. One, truly, truly validating just in, I think it's quite easy actually to get distracted to these impermanent truths, right? That I think that this is something that
Adam Dorsay (56:39.682)
and
Reese Brown (57:02.154)
we all resonate with, there is a resonance to what you are saying that is, I want to feel connected. I want to be able to see and be seen, to be loved as to be seen and to give that to someone else. Like we all have had glimpses of these moments, but how do we create that lasting feeling? And I think that distraction is such a big piece of that. And look, I...
will be the first to tell you the Facebook birthday notifications have saved my butt multiple times. And I'm like, thank you for reminding me that it is this person's birthday. But I do think that knowing that because time is our most valuable non-renewable resource, that means it is so valuable to so many people. And we know they want our eyeballs. They want our attention. And to...
Adam Dorsay (57:36.472)
For sure.
Reese Brown (57:55.918)
actively choose or replace that attention is so, so important. So what a great reminder. And I think within this journey of really pursuing authentic connection with the self, with the other, something greater than the self, one of the things that you mentioned right up top in the book is about how connection is the driver of meaning in our lives.
Meaning is the currency that I like to deal in. And I believe that 100 % what you said about the height of mental health is to share your experience and to also take in someone else's experience. I think that can be so difficult because it is such a vulnerable thing to do. But I've heard it said that poets are the ones who deal in experience, right?
This is, across disciplines, what we all feel and know and see to be true.
Reese Brown (59:05.358)
How can we hold on to this?
meaning that connection provides what I'm getting quite esoteric and metaphysical with it, but I suppose in a very physical sense, what would be your recommendation for someone wanting to make a change like right right now? How can we hold on to the meaning that the connection is making in our lives, whether it's the meaning we want it to make or not, it will make meaning.
we need to decide how to do it.
Adam Dorsay (59:45.07)
Such a great question. once again, it's evidence that the question is more important than the answer, but I will give you an answer that I believe could be a starting point. And I'm also gonna say, unfortunately, based on time, I've only got like eight minutes, but I'm also gonna tell you something else. This is, and I've been doing a lot of these.
Seriously, Reese, you are awesome at this.
Reese Brown (01:00:18.648)
Thank you. Thank you so, so much.
Adam Dorsay (01:00:20.044)
Like, radonk. All right.
Reese Brown (01:00:23.896)
That is so kind. Thank you.
Adam Dorsay (01:00:26.294)
Yeah, for sure. And I mean it. Like this. I feel like I'm just sitting in a fluffy cloud, just having like a cup of tea with like one of the coolest people is just fantastic. All right, so
Adam Dorsay (01:00:44.644)
There are 8 billion of us on the planet, a little bit more. Each of us has a different connection formula. But the way we can find it could be through going with what's interesting, start with what's interesting to you. Don't trip on it. You might be interested in insects right now. You might be interested in astrophysics. There are these windows that show up in a curious person's life, and we've been told to shut them down.
because we're supposed to focus on what we're supposed to focus on. And that is our schoolwork. And that makes sense. And I'm grateful for the basic tools. I'm grateful to know without having to think what nine times seven is. These are important tools. And yet they do come with side effects. And that is the curiosity element has not been properly tended to. Some of us will come alive through woodwork. just have a friend who just told me he's over 50.
He's now like this master wood like what did not see that coming. He's like an amazing lawyer. And now he's just all he wants to do is sit in his shed and do his woodworking thing. And that is his truth with a, know, with a capital T for now. you know, who knows what it'll be next. He could become, you know, a Will Ferrell like flautist from, from, what was that movie called? Anchorman. who knows? It could happen.
Reese Brown (01:02:05.667)
Yep.
Adam Dorsay (01:02:09.54)
And that's by the way, that's one of the geniuses by the way of the whole Will Ferrell joke. Him, for those of you who've seen Anchorman and I love that movie and I love that you love the second, I'm obsessed with that guy. There's no question that he was connected even though he was completely clowning, but he was all in and that's the reason we love him when he's playing cowbell. Like Will Ferrell is utterly connected to the thing he's doing so hard.
And that's why we love him. And that's why he's become such an international hit that he sure. I mean, the sense of humor is absolutely Einsteinian. Like he's a genius. There's no question of that, but he leans hard. He leans so hard into it. As does Kristen Wigg. There are certain people who just go at it. Bono from you too. These some of these people who go really, really hard. I know some people like to clown on this guy. Chris Martin from Coldplay. I think he's fantastic.
He goes hard. He's all in. He's leading with his heart. And you were talking about vulnerability. And I'm so infinitely grateful to Brené Brown for bringing vulnerability to the surface as a thing and talking about shame and as she does and how to contend with shame and to people like Kristin Neff and to Chris Germer, the latter of whom has been on my podcast talking about cultivating self-
compassion, which is correlated with all kinds of great outcomes, so much so that the Navy SEALs use it. each of us is called our vocatus, our vocation. Each of us is called to a thing at a particular time. My younger son is obsessed with basketball statistics. It's just like totally and utterly obsessed. And I'm so glad he is because he's learning more about math. He's learning about more about like certain aspects of the world. And I'm
absolutely cheering him on on his geekdom. I want everybody to find their inner geek. What is your geekdom? What turns you on? What brings you alive? And there is no such thing as long as it's hurting no one and not yourself. There's no such thing as a guilty pleasure. I talk about George Michael and my absolute adoration of this man and as being one of the greatest voices of all time and I would be get clowned on. I would be shamed in high school had I even suggested that I listen to him with any modicum of joy, let alone thinking
Adam Dorsay (01:04:33.176)
The man was one of the greatest vocalists of ever. So find it, own it, wear it proudly, lean into it like Will Ferrell playing a cowbell, you know, go hard. I'm not saying to get into somebody's face like he does on the skip, but I'm saying just, you know, that expression of dance like no one's watching, let's do more of that. We're alive for such a short time. Let's just, let's live like that.
Reese Brown (01:04:56.268)
Yeah, lean in. I love it. It's so true. It's so true. Adam, my final question just to wrap a beautiful bow on this generous, generous conversation. What is one word to describe how you are feeling right now?
Adam Dorsay (01:05:07.128)
Mmm.
Adam Dorsay (01:05:15.38)
funny and it's gonna sound a little too on point. My nickname as you know is EnthusiAdam and I'm feeling enthusiastic like this like you know I got according to my ring stats I got so so sleep last night my sleep was eh I really am trying to geek out of my sleep and for you all the way across the pond through this lovely connection on the riverside FM to bring me this much joy and this much
Reese Brown (01:05:24.014)
I love that.
Adam Dorsay (01:05:45.246)
life and enthusiasm. think the word enthusiasm comes like something like breathing life into, I don't know, I'll look up the etymology of it, but I'm feeling enthusiastic.
Reese Brown (01:05:54.606)
I love that. Adam, thank you so very much for your time, for your work, for anyone who wants to find Adam and his podcast, his book, and all of the wonderful stuff he does. And of course, we'll be in the show notes video description wherever you're listening or watching. Adam, thank you so much.
Adam Dorsay (01:06:13.784)
Reese Brown, this has been a blast.