Grief, Religion, and the Resilient Human Spirit with Coach Katelyn Andree
Reese Brown (02:07.736)
Firstly, Caitlin, thank you so much for being here and taking the time and energy to sit down and have a conversation with me. I am so excited to be chatting with you.
Katelyn Andree (02:19.496)
I am so excited, Reese, and just like really honored and thrilled to be here and a little nervous too, but excited. I'm excited and nervous.
Reese Brown (02:27.992)
Yes, I love it. I appreciate your vulnerability and honesty and calling it out. But I think also, I was actually talking to someone about this this morning. believe it's, I hope I'm not wrong in saying this. I believe it's an Alan Watts quote, but it goes, where your fear is, there your lesson is. And that has just been a recurring theme for me.
recently, especially where it's like, okay, this thing scares me. We gotta do it. We gotta do it.
Katelyn Andree (03:02.563)
love that. I love that. That reminds me, have you been watching any of Melinda French -Gate's interviews on YouTube?
Reese Brown (03:13.647)
No, but I love Melinda Gates and her book, The Moment of Lift is like one of my favorite books. I, so adding that to my list.
Katelyn Andree (03:16.626)
Okay.
Katelyn Andree (03:20.176)
It added to your list. All of the episodes are great, but I recently watched the one with Oprah and Gail and Oprah talks about, you know, listening for the whispers and sometimes you're like nerves. I think are sometimes little whispers of things to pay attention to. her advice was to listen to those whispers before they become, you know, shouts or things that are more.
Reese Brown (03:44.376)
Mmm.
Katelyn Andree (03:46.79)
like aggressively looking and getting at your attention. And I loved that of like that whole concept and idea of like just really paying attention and what your emotions and like what you're noticing and what's coming up for you is telling you something and to listen to it.
Reese Brown (03:50.636)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (04:03.66)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think also this like, listen to the whisper before it becomes a shout, but also I think sometimes when we're really in tune with certain things, it can be easier to hear it. But if we're first starting to practice intuition and other things, it's like, it does feel like a whisper sometimes and it's hard to, harder to hear it over the noise. So I do really love that.
Katelyn Andree (04:18.365)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (04:26.493)
Mm.
Reese Brown (04:31.64)
Well, first question, just to hopefully set a nice tone for our session today, is what is one thing you're grateful for?
Katelyn Andree (04:41.264)
I love this question. And I know it was coming. to be, you know, again, vulnerable and completely real, like what I'm grateful for is, you know, I'm turning 40 this fall and my own version of my midlife unraveling as it's led me to new connections, but also reconnections, you know, reconnecting to myself.
Reese Brown (04:59.127)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (05:09.074)
my strengths, reconnecting with friends, kind of connecting to, like listening to those whispers and also noticing little glimmers of joy in my everyday life.
Reese Brown (05:21.868)
Hmm, I really love that. So, I mean, this will lead us beautifully into the next question, but first I wanna pause on this word choice, unraveling. Talk to me about that word choice, because of course we've all heard midlife crisis, and it sounds like maybe you don't identify with that. So talk to me about that.
Katelyn Andree (05:34.525)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (05:39.059)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (05:43.784)
don't. I don't. don't. I think the word crisis implies that there's something wrong. And I think every new experience that you have is teaching you something. I think that's, you know, I have very high positivity. And so I tend to look at that. But
I can't really take credit for the unraveling versus crisis. It's actually a Brene Brown quote, if you're familiar with her work, and the gifts of imperfection. I think, and this is, I think somewhat a direct quote, but people may call what happens at midlife a crisis, but it's not. It's an unraveling, a time when you feel a desperate pull to live the life you want to live, not the one that you're supposed to live.
Reese Brown (06:15.18)
Yes.
Reese Brown (06:28.856)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (06:37.33)
Right? Can we take a deep breath for that? And, and, you know, for me, growing up, I always was kind of ingrained in me and kind of like this striving and climbing and in this specific definition of success. And I think as I get older, I realized that I kind of want to unsubscribe to that original, you know,
Reese Brown (06:38.421)
Yeah, right?
Reese Brown (07:05.347)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (07:07.102)
kind of idea and thought and that there's just so much more and kind of like peeling back the layers of like who I am, you know, talk about inner child work, but like really just like rediscovering what brings me joy and rediscovering what success means to me. And historically and early in my career, that always felt like the next promotion. That always felt like the, you know, that traditional.
kind of climbing of like, you know, whatever. And I've just like slowly started to unravel that and really redefine what success looks like for me. And it's been a challenging and emotional, but ultimately like really rewarding series of.
Reese Brown (07:48.942)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (08:01.556)
probably a couple years of like things happening in my life that have kind of taught me more and more in sort of what I want, how I want to live and what's the life that I want to live.
Reese Brown (08:03.224)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (08:16.29)
Yeah, right, absolutely. No, I really actually relate to that a lot and I think there is something to a quarter life unraveling as well, perhaps. But yes, I'm like 25th birthday is coming up in like a week or so and I'm like, yeah, that seems about on track. Right.
Katelyn Andree (08:27.028)
There is, yes.
Katelyn Andree (08:36.135)
Mmm.
Katelyn Andree (08:39.758)
So you could relate. We're kind of at these different little milestones and like it is very much like a time of kind of like sitting back.
Reese Brown (08:48.938)
Yes, allowing. You touched on several of these things, but I do want to dive deeper into what is your story, which is the second question I always like to ask. But even in hearing you talk about this kind of inner child work and healing and moving all the way now into the stage of life you're in, you mentioned a lot of unlearning of lessons. So just talk to me more about your story and how
We have gotten to the place that we find you today.
Katelyn Andree (09:21.694)
Amazing, yeah. I was born and raised up until I went to college in Kansas City, Missouri. So like a great childhood. I grew up on a lake and just loved swimming and skiing and sailing, very active. Attended public schools, but like was always very high achieving in school academics and also swimming and in sports.
a really childhood defined of kind of high achieving, like making good grades and being successful in sports. And then I went to college on the East Coast and my parents both grew up in the Midwest and their parents were kind of like, can go to any state school in Kansas. And so they were like, the world's your oyster. Where would you like to go? Dream big and explore. And so I landed at Boston College and
loved my time there, but it was, you know, understandably a culture shock coming from a relatively, you know, I don't know, Midwestern background and, you know, public universities to a private university and taking a lot of courses in like philosophy and theology and things that I hadn't really like learned about. But really kind of found my footing and made some incredible friends and also loved my time there because I
Reese Brown (10:24.024)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (10:47.74)
I expanded my worldview and spent a semester abroad in Hong Kong and spent a summer in Shanghai teaching English. Actually, after my freshman year, my parents were like, my gosh, we thought you at least would come home your first summer. And I'm like, well, but, you know, so I found a program, I with a friend, the organization paid for our flights and our lodging. And so we stayed in a primarily like,
Reese Brown (11:02.051)
Right?
Katelyn Andree (11:17.46)
Chinese community. And so it was this really formative experience in my life of developing empathy for folks that are in spaces that like you're not the majority. And that was the first time that that had really happened for me, you know, feeling othered. so that was really formative. And then after I graduated, I wanted to come back to the Midwest. And so past 17 years, I've actually lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which is where I am now.
and really moved here for a job. So I spent the first 13 years of my career at Target Corporation, primarily merchandising roles. So again, like continuing my high achieving, like climbing, know, everything, hardworking, hustling. And then most recently, have been an innovative group in digital marketing the past couple years. And what I loved about my
professional career is like I've spent over a decade leading teams and I'm really passionate about empowering women and underrepresented folks to develop their leadership style, develop their voice and confidence. In the last two years, I got a little bit more serious, listening to the whispers about formally investing in this. So my passion for coaching, which I feel like is kind of like
something that I like love to do and I've, I've gotten a lot of really positive feedbacks. I just wanted to dive deeper in, in, and got certified in Clifton strengths by Gallup, if you're familiar. and after kind of taking the assessment with my good friend, Jen and really unlocking, wow, like the power of positive psychology and focusing in on.
Reese Brown (12:57.135)
Mm
Katelyn Andree (13:11.25)
What comes naturally to you and how do you focus in on that? And if you invest in those things, you become excellent versus kind of focusing all the things that like, maybe you're not, don't come as naturally. You can do them, you your traditional weaknesses. But if you're investing all of your time there, the only thing that you're really doing is mitigating failure versus kind of focusing on kind of becoming excellent. And everybody has these like unique
a unique DNA in terms of like a makeup of like your like strengths, which really unlocked, you know, for me, it made a lot of sense for all the feedback that I'd heard and I felt bad about myself. And I'm like, well, this is just kind of an underdeveloped strength that I have. And kind of understanding that was was was really a pivotal moment for me of kind of one recognizing that everybody is unique, which I knew before. like this tool kind of helps.
Reese Brown (13:55.021)
Right.
Katelyn Andree (14:10.26)
kind of put some language behind it, which was great. And then this last summer, which is where we met, was in training to become more formally ICF accredited. So kind of learning the foundations of coaching and getting trained up on that. And then from a personal side, so I've been married for about 10 years. We just celebrated our 10 -year wedding anniversary in June.
Reese Brown (14:37.666)
Congratulations. It is, it is.
Katelyn Andree (14:38.952)
Thank you. It's a big accomplishment. Super big accomplishment. And we have two young kiddos, so Jackson and Ada, who are starting kindergarten and first grade next week, which like I can't even think about it because I will start crying. And I already mentioned, you know, this December, I'm going to be looking forward to celebrating my 40th birthday. And in the past have
you know, had really negative views about aging, but really embracing it and excited about it and like leaning into it. And this year it's more meaningful for me because it will be just two days after the one year of my mom's sudden passing in a tragic car accident. And so that is definitely has been part of
apologies if I get a little emotional, as a part of kind of this unraveling is, you know, and it was like a very tragic car accident. like, you know, I no idea it was coming. But, you know, going through my grief has been this painful but beautiful journey of,
Reese Brown (15:39.274)
No, apologies.
Katelyn Andree (16:05.556)
Rediscovering my inner strength and like at first when it happened I was so scared and like I can't do this without her because she was such a source of emotional and spiritual Support and guidance for me and like my whole family But as I have navigated it I've found My inner strength and like my almost 39 years of of learning from her and like she's still with me and like
She's kind of guiding me and encouraging me now. so like it's, it's, you know, there's kind of this term of like post -traumatic growth. And I'm in a period of that, you know? And I think it was more emotional because, you know, two years prior to that, I was in a car accident myself and almost died. And so I've had like a series of really, challenging events that
Reese Brown (16:45.315)
Mm -hmm.
Katelyn Andree (17:04.34)
have, you know, in some respects been like so, hard, but I found the beauty. And I was thinking of this song the other day as I was thinking about this conversation and there's this song called Let Go by Frau Fowler or whatever. And I think it was like the Garden State movie, but there's this line that there's beauty in the breakdown. And I think like that is
Reese Brown (17:30.668)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (17:33.888)
some of what I've been experiencing and looking for the beauty in that unraveling and in these really tough moments that everybody goes through. My experience is not unique, but it's been this really interesting few years of really challenging things that have unraveled me, but I'm excited about what that unraveling is becoming.
Reese Brown (18:02.956)
Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Really quite. No, my goodness. One, I always want to go super deep. I'm like, that's that's my favorite place to go. But two, no apologies at all ever for showing up authentically as you. That is the purpose of this space. And I think also
Katelyn Andree (18:04.948)
I was kind of vulnerable, sorry if I went too deep.
Katelyn Andree (18:17.062)
Yeah, okay good.
Katelyn Andree (18:26.644)
Thank you.
Reese Brown (18:33.351)
One of the key motivating factors behind wanting to have a podcast where we do go there is to allow listeners to go there too, right? To say,
Katelyn Andree (18:41.905)
Mmm, yeah.
Reese Brown (18:44.778)
whatever unraveling anyone is going through is okay. And we all are experiencing different unravelings or have before. And I think being able to have open conversations about that is
maybe the only way that we can not deal with it because it's not something that you want to like, okay, solve and then put it in a box and put it away, but hold it, right? Because I do believe we need to do that together. One thing that I do really want to talk about is I suppose the role of mother. You as a mom and
Katelyn Andree (19:26.697)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (19:30.35)
having this experience with your mom recently and losing her in that role, this kind of matrilineage that has been passed down and you mentioned that your mom was very much a source of strength both spiritually and emotionally. And I would love to just hear more about what that role of mother means to you.
Katelyn Andree (19:33.726)
Mm
Reese Brown (19:56.12)
during this time as a mother yourself, but also as someone who has this really close relationship with her mom and is dealing with this grief all at the same time.
Katelyn Andree (20:08.106)
Yeah, I know it's
Katelyn Andree (20:13.566)
You know, I didn't understand the joy, the pain, the immense emotions of, you know, being a mother until I became one myself. And once I had my children, that's when my mom and I really got close because I, and we were close previously, but our relationship deepened.
because I finally felt and understood all of the emotions and the sheer responsibility and privilege and joy that it is to be a mother. And somebody described becoming a parent as, you
essentially a child is like a piece of your heart that is walking around in the world, seemingly unprotected. you, it's this, you know, when you start out, it's really about like you are, you are directing and you are like a support and you are helping to shape. And then eventually that role evolves to being more of like a coach and like a support.
court, you know, and that grows. So what it's been, yeah, and losing my mom really kind of made me think about it more and more. And what an immense responsibility it is to show up. And for me, as a mother of
you know, a young white man and a daughter, I have a very big sense of responsibility along with my husband Rob to raise them and instilling, you know, like showing by not only telling and teaching, but showing.
Katelyn Andree (22:33.012)
how you treat others and how you talk to yourself. And I think it's this, it's a very intimidating role to be in. And I think it's, it can be super overwhelming, but I think connecting with other like parents and moms specifically has been one of the best things that I've ever done and continue to do because you can't be a mother alone. I think.
back to culturally, we're very individualistic in the United States, where it's like you have your nuclear family, that's the household. But there's a reason why there so many cultures that have intergenerational living situations and close knit communities. And so we've lost a lot of that, where to the extent of when you become a mother, I feel like
Reese Brown (23:07.128)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (23:30.44)
The air we breathe is like, you can't do it all, you should do it all. And the reality is, like, as a working mother, there are times when I feel like I'm not successful at my job, and there are times when I'm not successful as being a mother. And that space has been very difficult to navigate, and especially as someone who, you know, like...
Reese Brown (23:55.33)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (24:00.296)
like a recovering, high achieving type A person striving for the next and like that's a hard space to be in. And then the last thing I'll mention is, you know, being a mother, you know, like one I would recommend everybody to be in therapy, but especially before you become a parent, it is so important because like,
Reese Brown (24:05.1)
Right?
Reese Brown (24:10.498)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (24:25.0)
the amount of emotional regulation that you have to have on the daily of like, okay, like how I'm showing up is like, it matters, you know, because like, and because the way that you act, it doesn't matter what you say, but if you react in a way, like they're gonna see that as like, you know, something. So it's been really humbling to also in, you know, with my partner Rob.
Reese Brown (24:35.49)
Go.
Reese Brown (24:48.022)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (24:54.278)
to apologize to our kids too, like when we do something that like, you know, we're like not proud of. And so it's definitely humbling and a great honor to be a mother.
Reese Brown (25:04.94)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (25:09.631)
Thank you for sharing that. As somebody who was not a mother, I also agree that I think everyone should be in therapy. That has been one of the most instrumental things that I've ever done in my life. And I am scared to think of the person that I would be had I not been in therapy. And I would have to imagine also
Katelyn Andree (25:28.168)
Mm -hmm, exactly.
Reese Brown (25:32.802)
that not only are you having to emotionally regulate yourself so much because it's like, I can't imagine just the things a child says flippantly that are going to hit you in ways you don't even anticipate, but you are also having to emotionally regulate those other human beings that have their emotions too because they haven't developed those skills to do it for themselves yet. So you are running these programs like all at the same time and
Katelyn Andree (25:46.43)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (25:51.696)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (26:02.296)
Having to do that without the skill set is like trying to speak a language, like just being dropped into another country and not knowing the language at all, right? So I so appreciate that. And since you brought up Brene earlier, one thing that when you're talking about this striving, it makes me think of the Brene quote, recovering perfectionist, aspiring good enoughist, which has just been such a theme of my life ever since I discovered her work and.
Katelyn Andree (26:09.524)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Katelyn Andree (26:19.752)
Mmm.
Katelyn Andree (26:23.933)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (26:31.276)
really started identifying with the term perfectionist. And I think you raised such a good point about the expectations that are placed on women, but particularly mothers as well to do it all, right? And not just do it all, but do it all well and gracefully and beautifully while looking pretty, while enjoying looking at it. Yeah, yeah.
Katelyn Andree (26:40.009)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (26:49.416)
Yes. Yes.
Katelyn Andree (26:54.237)
Right.
And while smiling, don't forget that one.
Reese Brown (27:01.614)
I actually, this is a total tangent, but I did have the experience the other day of the, you used to smile so much. I just wish you would smile more. And I'm like, it's because I'm finally living for myself and not for other people, actually. I think that's what it is. It's because the smile used to not be real. And now my smile is, which means it doesn't happen as often. But I think when it does, it's so much brighter.
Katelyn Andree (27:05.268)
Please share.
Katelyn Andree (27:28.51)
Yes.
Reese Brown (27:31.03)
and means so much more, right? So it's definitely a learning moment for me there. But all of that is really tied up in success too. And you mentioned that at the start of our conversation, how this midlife unraveling is really tied to redefining what success means, what it looks like, what it feels like. And so, of course, I've kind of mentioned all of these different moving parts, but I would have to imagine they kind of all...
Katelyn Andree (27:31.347)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (27:40.393)
Yes.
Reese Brown (27:56.45)
have a voice in this for you. So just talk to me a little bit about your new definition of success, your evolving definition of success, and anything else that comes up around these topics.
Katelyn Andree (28:11.1)
Yeah, yeah, I, to answer that question, I'm gonna tell a quick story and I'm gonna try to keep this quick. So I mentioned that I was in a car accident and thankfully nobody was seriously injured or killed in that, but it was a pretty major car accident that resulted in me having a concussion and.
Reese Brown (28:17.496)
Please.
Reese Brown (28:24.46)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (28:40.032)
among other kind of, I would say, like emotional, like scars. And when that happened, you know, it's a funny thing. I went to the ER and the doctor was like, well, can you take off a day or two off work? And I'm like, yes. But then I thought like, okay, well then that means I should be back to work. This happened on a Wednesday night.
Reese Brown (28:46.435)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (29:08.454)
I took Thursday, Friday off and then I went back, reported back to work on Monday. And I felt like, wow, I can't, like they can't do it without me. I got to report back to duty and like, I guess I should be back to normal. And if you can imagine, like my job is all the things that you should not be doing if you're trying to recover from a concussion.
Reese Brown (29:12.631)
Monday.
Katelyn Andree (29:36.186)
It is looking at a screen all day long, thinking a lot of executive functioning, no breaks, running from meeting to meeting. And then my second shift of being a mother at the end of the day. So I went back to work for a week and then realized, my goodness, this is like I had a panic attack. And then I finally was like,
Reese Brown (29:37.762)
Right.
Reese Brown (30:00.717)
Mm.
Katelyn Andree (30:05.684)
person on my team just lovingly said at the end of the week, Caitlin, we've got this, like, take the time that you need to recover and heal. And I needed to hear that. And that kind of released me. then so I ended up taking up to a month off and, you know, through short -term disability, which was a great benefit. And that was really hard because like, it'd been like very wrapped up in, you know,
my, I feel like my identity in what I did for work. And then all of a sudden I'm seeing my, I'm in a position where like, I can no longer work. I can no longer watch TV. It's hard for me to even like listen to music and do anything else. Like I can't multitask. So it was this big wake up call for me of
Reese Brown (30:38.883)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (31:03.632)
of stripping away all these things that I felt like were this big part of my identity that all of a sudden I was really scared and like not knowing like okay like who you know who am I and like I I know that I'm much more than my job but I think up to that point I had just placed too much of my time energy and transparently like self -worth in the success of you know
Reese Brown (31:12.664)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (31:33.636)
my career and not as much weight and transparently like time and energy in the other things that are like rich and beautiful about one's life and so through that month off it was it was it was the unraveling of like it's stripped away of this thing that i have done and i felt like you know like
raised to believe being told like you're doing a great job and like it's that positive reinforcement that you just kind of get used to. And there was a day that you know every day I would go on walks because I couldn't really do much so I spent a lot of time in my garden which had become like overgrown and just like full of weeds parched you know I had like planted some flowers and they were not growing.
And before the accident, I just looked out there and I was like, my gosh, I just got like, duds seeds. Like, what the fuck? Like where are my flowers? You know? And then as I'm sitting there and weeding and realized, wow, like this really is kind of a metaphor for my wellbeing that I'm expecting this garden, vibrant flowers. But when was the last time I watered it? When was the last time that I weeded? You know? And then when was the last time that I really took
Reese Brown (32:46.851)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (33:02.302)
care of myself, you know, and do I have like the right routines in place? And so it was this big, like a ha moment for me and like sitting in my garden of just like, wow, like this is this this lands like this hits. And, and then I just had the time and space because my kids were in daycare and I wasn't working so I would spend, you know,
hours every day going on walks not listening to anything because like it I couldn't and so I I started to notice the everyday beauty that was around me all along and there was this one day and I will never forget this feeling
Reese Brown (33:34.37)
Mm.
Reese Brown (33:39.139)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (33:58.108)
I walking and I was just a block from my house. I'd gone on this walk all the time, you But I was truly present and I had the most intense feeling of joy Like I'm getting emotional thinking about it, but the most intense feeling of joy
Reese Brown (34:12.833)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (34:25.852)
And it was because I was fully present. It's because I was.
Katelyn Andree (34:33.158)
unencumbered by thinking about what I had to do next and and infuse and I I have you know I mentioned like my mom like very spiritual and so like I think like this was this was kind of a real awakening and rediscovery of like wow I've never had this feeling after nailing a presentation at work
Reese Brown (34:34.476)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (34:52.482)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (35:02.332)
And I'm not going to have this feeling in the future only by kind of like this. Like this is so much bigger. And it was just this like kind of beautiful moment that then started this curiosity of why haven't I felt that level of joy? What can I do to protect that and build a life that
Reese Brown (35:10.84)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (35:22.04)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (35:31.984)
is centered around finding the joy in my everyday. And up to that point, I hustled, you know, I hustled and I was just like, and I hustled because I wanted to go on these like big fancy vacations. And that was like, I worked and worked my ass off to then like book that big trip. And then like, that's my big reward. And then I just was like, you know, but what I'm missing is in the everyday. And so
Reese Brown (35:41.485)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (35:59.064)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (36:00.966)
that redefining from what I felt like I had been conditioned and told and maybe just absorbed of like what success is, is climbing the corporate ladder, the status that you have, how much money you have to...
Reese Brown (36:09.079)
Right.
Katelyn Andree (36:17.736)
What's the status of my relationships and the depth of my community and the connection to myself and the connection to nature and the connection that I have with my kids and how I'm raising them and, and working towards what I feel like my God given talents are and sharing those. and so it's been really hard, but like that's been, that was kind of the big impetus. And now I've just been slowly trying to.
like break a lot of those old tapes and stories in my head. And it is so hard and it is a daily struggle, you know? Like I make it sound like, yep, and then I got it. No, it is hard. It is hard to like actively, you know, like not get so worked up over things that like, you know, in five hours will it matter? In five days will it matter? In five years will it matter?
Reese Brown (36:53.11)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (37:01.891)
Great.
Reese Brown (37:15.148)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (37:16.87)
and the answer is no, then again, let it go.
Reese Brown (37:21.954)
Right. Absolutely. I thank you for sharing and this beautiful moment of...
Pure, clear presence, I think, is...
Katelyn Andree (37:38.868)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (37:43.296)
always available to us, right? It is always there. And the, I'll use your language, tapes, stories, messages, narratives that are running on a loop in the background, prevent us from tuning in to that pure presence. And almost when you weren't able to do anything but be there is when
Katelyn Andree (38:03.442)
Hmm.
Mm.
Katelyn Andree (38:10.484)
Yes.
Reese Brown (38:13.954)
we can kind of awaken to that. And I think it does take that for a lot of us, even those that are extremely in tune or aware to snap out of it, right?
Katelyn Andree (38:25.224)
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (38:28.376)
The stories we tell ourselves are so powerful. And so many of the stories we tell ourselves are the stories that other people have told us that we've memorized. We have got them down. Even if we don't think we're telling them to ourselves, they are still running on repeat in the background. I just think a lot of people can relate to exactly what you're saying in...
Katelyn Andree (38:31.678)
They are.
Katelyn Andree (38:38.172)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (38:54.528)
wanting to break out of that cycle and choose something different. While of course you did not have any agency in this accident happening to you and while we can find silver linings and blessings, I don't think that you would have wished for this accident or wish that upon anybody, right?
Katelyn Andree (38:57.886)
Mm
Katelyn Andree (39:13.264)
no. no.
Reese Brown (39:19.974)
What ways after having this experience have you actively chased this feeling of present awareness joy? Again, and you said you kind of were inspecting your routines and watering this garden, right? What are the ways that you have started to try and water this garden to continue building a life that
feels joyful.
Katelyn Andree (39:50.622)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's a great question. And I think I'm trying things all the time. But the major thing that I did after, it was probably within six months after my accident that I actually kind of did it. But I moved from full time five days to four days.
And thankfully it was an option available at my current employer. And so was able to kind of scale back what my roles were and every Friday I now have off. And this is my, it's my recharge day and my kids are still in daycare and they're school. And it is a day that like, I don't sometimes even do the errands that I need to do.
It is just about refilling my cup because, and creating the space every week where I choose how I want to invest that day. And some weeks that looks like a massage and binge watching a show. Some weeks that looks like
Reese Brown (40:47.618)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (41:09.478)
scheduling lunch with a friend or happy hour and some weeks that looks like going to the gym and You know sitting in the hot tub for like two hours straight and then coming home some weeks that looks like going to a movie solo In it and it really it has been something so rewarding for me to one say no, I and here's the thing like I actually got
very nervous when I said I was working the four days and then people assume that I was spending that fifth day with my kids. And I wasn't. And I felt actually a lot of shame in like then kind of saying, actually, no, this is a day just for me. Does that tell you anything about?
Reese Brown (41:43.819)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (41:50.658)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (41:57.9)
I mean, I hear you. And I think, I mean, to go back to expectation of woman, expectation of mother, if you're not doing this, you must be doing these things. And the inherent shame built into that, that you must be needless in order to be good at these other things, which is just an impossible expectation.
Katelyn Andree (42:06.074)
Yes. Yes.
Katelyn Andree (42:10.842)
Mm -hmm.
Katelyn Andree (42:16.21)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (42:23.176)
Yeah, yeah. So that's the major thing that I've done. And then I'm just trying little things about being more mindful and present about boundaries around work and shutting that down and being really present with my kids and being really in tune with what my body and my intuition is telling me.
And I feel like in the past.
I've felt it or whispered, but I just powered on. And I muscled, white -knuckled through things because like, this is a hard day, but I'm just gonna like do it anyway. And so I have been actively trying to try softer, not try harder. And some days that, it looks different.
Reese Brown (43:15.427)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (43:25.492)
but it's really about trying to be very much in tune with, and for me sometimes like my body will kind of like start to yell at me if there's something in my unconscious that like maybe I haven't like thought about, but it starts yelling at me. for me, it's kind of like the between the two and four a like wake up at night. Like if that happens, you know, like.
then that's my signal of asking like, I wonder what's going on. Like, why, why am I, you
Reese Brown (43:58.851)
Mm.
Katelyn Andree (44:03.39)
So I'm not sure if I answered that question, but it's kind of like creating the schedule and space that I need and then trying to, on the everyday, really listen to my body and stay in tune to trust it. And I think, and then honor and act on that and take care of myself in the same way that I take care of others.
Reese Brown (44:05.513)
Dope. You -
Reese Brown (44:17.133)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (44:21.347)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (44:28.248)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (44:33.004)
Right? Well, and...
step into mother for yourself, right? Like embracing the same care and nurture of so many qualities that we can ascribe to the archetype of mother. But I do think that a lot of inner child work, going back to what you mentioned at the beginning, at least for me has really felt like stepping into this mothering role for myself, not that I...
Katelyn Andree (44:41.128)
Yeah. Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (44:50.3)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (45:04.13)
didn't have an amazing mother who did all of those things, right? But embracing that inherent feminine quality that we deserve to show ourselves the same way that we have a drive to show other people. When it comes to this question of shame, it's really hard to talk about, but I think it's such an integral part of
Katelyn Andree (45:05.842)
Yeah. Right.
Katelyn Andree (45:12.67)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (45:29.054)
Mm
Katelyn Andree (45:32.936)
Yes.
Reese Brown (45:33.75)
taking care of ourselves. It just is, especially for women. And I think in taking time, one thing that has kept occurring to me in my own work with self care is if I feel shame in taking care of myself, I'm actually not getting the rest or self care, right? Because that shame is essentially counteracting everything else that I'm doing.
Katelyn Andree (45:35.304)
us.
Katelyn Andree (45:59.955)
Yes.
Reese Brown (46:00.622)
How do you engage with that shame piece and the honesty and bravery of, no, I'm not spending time with my kids. I am spending time with myself and I deserve that because I am a human being. Like that is, everyone deserves that, right? Yeah, talk to me about shame.
Katelyn Andree (46:10.408)
you
Katelyn Andree (46:15.6)
Yeah. Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (46:20.786)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, mean, this could be a whole nother episode, girl. I mean, and a whole body of work of Brene's work. for me, like what's helpful for me is like kind of getting in tune of like when I start to feel that and that icky feeling and then like naming it. like going back to what I know is true.
Reese Brown (46:31.902)
Right?
Right? Yes.
Katelyn Andree (46:53.33)
And what I know is true is that I deserve.
Reese Brown (46:53.432)
you
Katelyn Andree (47:00.104)
to live a whole life and take care of myself. And I think what, specific to the shame that I felt about not spending that day off with my kids was really reframing in the why that I did it. And the why that I did it was because I think the misguided thing about
Reese Brown (47:19.416)
Mmm.
Katelyn Andree (47:27.336)
you know, self -care being selfish. It's like, that's not true. Because if you aren't taking care of yourself and your needs, then you are showing up in the world and in your relationships in not the best way that you can be. And so what really helped me is reframing and thinking more about, you know, yeah, maybe like...
to others, like spending more time with my kids makes me a quote unquote better mother. But actually what being with showing up for my kids and showing up as a better partner and mother actually looks like is for me to not feel so run down, tired, exhausted so that I wake up on Saturday morning or I pick them up from daycare or school on Friday night.
Reese Brown (48:12.707)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (48:22.152)
and I'm excited to see them because like I've put my oxygen mask on first, you know, because I am, my cup's full and so thus I can pour into them in a more meaningful way versus like, I'm just going to spend time with you because that's what I'm supposed to do, but I am just spending for me, maybe not as high quality of time and I'm not really present and I'm not.
Reese Brown (48:27.361)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (48:43.426)
Right.
Reese Brown (48:50.786)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (48:51.762)
I'm not showing up in the way that I want to show up. And I think kind of tying back to like your emotional regulation, like, you know, it's pretty easy for me after going through therapy and kind of like doing that work to understand those little like red flags of like, okay, like this means I need to do something and kind of easily annoyed and easily kind of rattled.
Reese Brown (49:10.829)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (49:14.936)
Right.
Katelyn Andree (49:19.078)
is like a big indicator for me, but I just found like when I took that day and like took care of myself all weekend, I showed up as the partner and as the mother, as the friend, as the daughter, as the sister that I wanted to be. And so again, like, do I still feel like guilt and shame? But, but yes, but then I quickly tell myself, but actually like,
Reese Brown (49:21.464)
Sure.
Reese Brown (49:34.861)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (49:48.008)
This is what I need to do to show up in the most authentic and real and whole way to the folks in my life.
Reese Brown (49:57.656)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (50:00.938)
Absolutely. And I do think a lot of it is as a fellow therapy enjoyer, my kind of method that has worked really well is cognitive behavioral therapy in this. Okay, when I feel that narrative coming in, it's like, okay, what is the story I'm replacing it with? Because I do not choose this story anymore. So instead of, it's like, okay, there's the shame narrative. Nope.
Katelyn Andree (50:08.192)
Hahaha!
Katelyn Andree (50:16.05)
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Katelyn Andree (50:23.646)
Yes. Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (50:29.576)
I am choosing the story of when my cup is full, I can better pour into other people. When I take care of myself, I can better take care of others and quality over quantity, right? Like all of these things that we can start to really tell ourselves to try and I don't know if the journey is ever complete in this way, but in rewriting the narratives that we have.
Katelyn Andree (50:34.387)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (50:38.153)
Yes.
Reese Brown (50:55.522)
been born into, been conditioned into, been socialized into. I do think that that is part of our duty as human beings wanting to make the world a better place, is acting in accordance with the stories that we want other people to live as well. And so I think it's very noble to be doing this self work. Like truly, what a beautiful gift to the world around you in.
Katelyn Andree (50:56.935)
Exactly.
Katelyn Andree (51:19.89)
you
Reese Brown (51:24.588)
I mean, giving your kids the example of, I can take a Friday off of work and that's good. Not only is it okay, it is encouraged and a good thing to do. Like that already is moving the needle forward in a really, really beautiful way. One thing that, of course, of course, one thing that I do want to also talk about
Katelyn Andree (51:46.42)
Thank you.
Reese Brown (51:55.235)
if you're comfortable going here, is kind of the spirituality piece because I think one thing that grief of course brings up is spirituality inherently. So I would just love to hear, especially knowing your mom was a spiritual influence on you, a little bit about your relationship to higher power and spirit and source and what that's looked like and maybe how that's changed too.
as your relationship with self has changed.
Katelyn Andree (52:25.694)
Yeah, yeah, great question. And, you know, for me, I was raised in the Christian faith. And so when I say spiritual, it's really grounded in kind of the Christian faith tradition. But I like to think about it kind of like more expansively too, because I it's a little bit more applicable, but.
But I think the fundamentals of the Christian faith is that we are one among many and that, you know, it is not about the self, it is about others and it is about, and so that has been really formative and my mother was a woman of deep faith. And, you know,
I remember that, you know, my father -in -law like first met her and he was like, wow, like she is like, I've never met anybody like her. Like she's so amazing. what, how does she show up? And I'm like, that's her faith. And it's because she lives by not focused on being so selfish and like advancing her own means. It is about like,
the non -self. And I think like if I were to kind of make that applicable, like that's how I really view the world and how like it and having my mom had a servant's heart. And you know, that's like, I think maybe like a very Christian term, but I think the term it is, but I see it more broadly in is about not
Reese Brown (53:51.469)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (54:09.368)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (54:17.576)
what can you do for me lately, but how can I help you and how are you helping others? so that, and that for me has been helpful when I become so wrapped up in what's happening in my life and like this, you know, it's like, no, there's like so much more goodness and like service for others.
Reese Brown (54:20.942)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (54:44.734)
that we should be focused on. And that's always been a really grounding place and prayer and meditation is something that like I find a lot of comfort in, in knowing that there is a higher power. And for me, you know, I believe, you know, in God and Jesus and to me that is a very integral part of me. And when I get so focused and harried in life, it is...
Reese Brown (54:46.413)
Right?
Katelyn Andree (55:14.204)
This is not all, you know, and it was a big source of comfort when my mom passed. And within our belief, it's like she is in heaven and and she lived every day. She left it all out in the field, you know, and she, you know, it was incredible, like we we read all like she kept journals and she kind of like went like deep into.
Reese Brown (55:33.127)
Right, right. I love that.
Katelyn Andree (55:43.72)
like the Psalms and her interpretation of them. And it's just like, she was such a beautiful woman. And so it's really just about, it's not about the self. And that's what I try to ground myself in. And she was always so a strong force in that for me throughout my life that.
Reese Brown (55:57.848)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (56:10.076)
I'm hoping that I can demonstrate that for others, you know? But, yeah.
Reese Brown (56:17.3)
No, I love that. And I do think that this idea of servant's heart, there are so many being raised in Texas very much in the Southern Baptist community. But, and it's really informed a lot of my spiritual beliefs because there is so many or are so many
Katelyn Andree (56:29.14)
There you go, you know.
Reese Brown (56:44.222)
sayings and phrases in the heart of what in my mind Christianity is intended to be is the heart of
Katelyn Andree (56:49.748)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (56:56.298)
So many other things as well that is this like other before self like We are like you said one of many one of much Part of one right and that notion is extremely comforting to me and That when I am helping someone else I am inherently helping myself and vice versa and I think that goes back to this belief in
Katelyn Andree (57:10.046)
Yes.
Reese Brown (57:23.914)
self -care and releasing shame from that too. And having a belief in something more than self is just provided a lot of, I do think comfort is just the word I keep going back to. And I remember losing my grandma when I was younger. And while at that point in my life, I didn't really believe in a literal heaven and hell. I've taken a much more
Katelyn Andree (57:39.038)
Yes.
Reese Brown (57:53.742)
personal metaphoric approach to my varied spirituality at this point. Knowing that she is still here was just one of the most powerful things for me. And so I guess I would really love to know about that piece with your mom too and in this kind of literal versus metaphoric interpretation and in the way that
Katelyn Andree (58:07.134)
Yes.
Reese Brown (58:23.52)
specifically through the Christian lens, this is a personal relationship with our higher power, right? What does that personal look like for you?
Katelyn Andree (58:35.09)
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, it's a question more like my personal relationship with Christianity and God or like how I think about my mother.
Reese Brown (58:52.098)
Both. Any. All. None.
Katelyn Andree (58:55.189)
Okay. Okay. Sounds good. would say for me, my personal, my faith is, is like, was raised, in a, a, would say like a very like strict faith, like not a developed family. And I think there was so much like amazing things about that. And as I have gotten older, like my, like spiritual,
path has been always grounded in those core fundamentals. what I have transparently been challenged with is, I think anything man -made is inherently somewhat flawed. And so I think about the church in that way of being flawed. And all man -made institutions are, but if you strip that away, the
Reese Brown (59:42.104)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (59:54.036)
core and the heart of the Christian faith is so beautiful. And so that's what I really hold on to and have a quite, I'd say more liberal congregation that we attend and really welcoming to all folks. Because I think that that's the message of like,
Jesus is that he is, you know, a man who talked to like prostitutes and to the poor. And so I think that there's like there's, I think that servant's heart gets lost in, in some congregations and, and, and Christian faith communities that like, really it is about taking care of
your community and creating a community and supporting one another and that it's like subscribe, you know, like I'm in. I'm in. I think what gets lost and what's challenging and like even kind of the shame that I'm think like that's coming up for me is like saying the Christian faith is like as we go into this election cycle, know, saying that I'm of the Christian faith people have.
Reese Brown (01:00:58.656)
Yeah. Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:01:19.848)
their ideas on them, like what my beliefs are and my stance are and that I'm a certain political party and have certain views. And I have a lot more of a nuanced perspective on that. And I am like very much a feminist and as well. And so like there's lots of like some Christian faith family, like kind of things that I don't.
Reese Brown (01:01:32.77)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:01:48.68)
believe in. But I think it's hard in the current environment even to kind of be talking about religion because people always have a kind of like a certain set of assumptions of like what that means about what you believe and then by then how you vote and then how you live your life. And I would say like for me it's always been a little bit more expansive and in that.
Reese Brown (01:02:16.118)
Yeah, no, that's beautiful. yeah, no, that really touches on a lot, because I do think religion and spirituality, that they overlap, are both so fascinating to me and how people are gifted answers and then how they take and deconstruct and reconstruct and provide new answers for themselves. And I think fundamentally humans are
Katelyn Andree (01:02:16.146)
So not sure if...
Katelyn Andree (01:02:39.988)
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (01:02:46.292)
meaning makers, right? Like we take this information that we're being given and we'll write a story about it. And I think that that's the thing that religion does across history is it tells a story to try and answer these unanswerable questions. And yet we all have our own personal story about the religion too that should be nuanced and expansive. I love that word when applied to this because
Katelyn Andree (01:02:47.806)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:03:08.904)
Yeah. Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:03:14.018)
What is higher power? What is source? If not expansive, if not inclusive, if not profoundly bigger than the human mind can comprehend. So I really appreciate you bringing up that vocabulary, but also your honesty within that. And I think...
Katelyn Andree (01:03:17.34)
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (01:03:36.768)
in terms of like the sociopolitical and just zeitgeist that we exist in in this time, being able to hold nuance is getting more and more and more difficult. And the more that we can talk about that and talk about the pieces that inspire connection and curiosity and care, hopefully the more we can also hold nuance.
And like in the face of difference, have curiosity. And in the face of misunderstanding, hold care. yeah, so I think that's just my innate curiosity is also how do you dig into this curiosity, right? Of what are we doing here? And how does that inform these questions? And I think inherently in dealing with grief, dealing with self -care, dealing with
Katelyn Andree (01:04:11.528)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (01:04:26.665)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:04:36.13)
being a mom, a woman, a human being, we confront these things every day. So I so appreciate your vulnerability and going there. Yeah, yeah, it's.
Katelyn Andree (01:04:47.892)
I know I'm like, do I want to go here? Well, I'm going to go here. I'm going to go here because I'm going to be vulnerable and I want to be courageous in this conversation. And I think like I've felt a lot of shame about like saying that I'm a Christian and like I'm like, well, why? You know, and it's because I think of what other people then assume what that means about me. And I and that inherently.
Reese Brown (01:04:56.823)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:05:04.963)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:05:12.684)
Right? Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:05:16.914)
I don't like, you know, like we're losing, we're losing the art of nuance and communication and the connection. And like, I fundamentally believe that like we all have more in common than what we have not in common. And let's talk about that. Let's connect on what brings us together and what we all want.
Reese Brown (01:05:18.22)
Right?
Katelyn Andree (01:05:46.554)
and desire out of life and that's connection, it's making meaning, it's having a meaningful life and contributing in a meaningful way. So thank you for sharing. didn't know we were going to go this deep here on this podcast. Okay.
Reese Brown (01:05:48.269)
Right.
Reese Brown (01:05:54.349)
Yes.
Reese Brown (01:06:01.664)
Yeah, no, this is, this is, it's what I, what I love, what I, what I like talking about. well, and as someone who raised in the Christian faith, I don't necessarily identify as a Christian anymore, but there are certainly still, like you were saying, those fundamentals that of course, informed the rest of your life. And I think as I've done more research and investigated to construct my own spiritual practice, that feels really aligned for me, just,
Katelyn Andree (01:06:09.054)
Ha
Katelyn Andree (01:06:12.574)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:06:28.724)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (01:06:31.346)
in what you're saying about there's fundamentally more that's in common than different. The more that I've researched different religions and different spiritualities, the more I'm like, it's all love, man. But it really,
Katelyn Andree (01:06:35.506)
Yes. Yes.
Katelyn Andree (01:06:42.772)
I know, no, it's true. like, I guess, yeah. And when I've had like deep conversations with like folks from other of the major religions, it's so incredible because it's, there's so many things that are common, you know? But we're all just kind of focused on like the differences.
Reese Brown (01:07:01.72)
Yeah. Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:07:06.912)
Yes. And I do think that one thing that I also wanted to raise is, think I actually might've mentioned this in another podcast, but it really was so profound for me, the documentary God in Country, which does a really great job of talking about this intersection between politics, nationalism, and religion in the United States. And one of the things that I think the documentarians did really geniusly is interviewing primarily Christian
Katelyn Andree (01:07:25.01)
Mm, yes.
Reese Brown (01:07:35.68)
individuals, faith leaders, and researchers. So it is these people being critical of people that share their same belief system, but talking about it in a very informed way. And I just had such respect for that. And internally in any system, right, whether it be religion, spirituality, or political party, or school, you know, whatever
Katelyn Andree (01:07:51.39)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:08:04.046)
category a group of people lump themselves under, we must be self -critical and self -reflective because that is how we grow and get better. throw that out there as well. God and country. Yes, it is quite... It's a hard watch, but I think worth it. It's a hard watch. Right?
Katelyn Andree (01:08:10.216)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
I love that. I'm going to have to write that down and check it out. in country? Okay.
Katelyn Andree (01:08:30.14)
Sometimes those are the best ones though, know, they make you think and reflect.
Reese Brown (01:08:35.242)
Yes, yes. Well, and about kind of the heart of love is a part of a religion and how certain titles are maligned, but it's like this, at least to me, doesn't really feel like the faith that I see so many others profess. But anyways, tangent on that front. Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:08:56.532)
no, I love it. I mean, now I'm curious about your like your like faith and spiritual journey and like how you got to where you were. But I guess this is not like, I don't know, I don't want to derail.
Reese Brown (01:09:04.971)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:09:08.927)
Yeah, I guess. No, not at all. To give you just like a brief overview. So raised Christian growing up, Bible Belt, Hole Nine. But my parents never really seemed like they were like fully invested. And that was always something that was really intriguing for me was, OK, I'm being raised with this system.
Katelyn Andree (01:09:30.654)
Mm
Reese Brown (01:09:38.338)
But there's something else here that I don't quite understand. And yet, from a very young age, I always felt extremely spiritually aligned. There's something bigger than myself. There's something big that I'm meant to do, that I am a part of. And the word that I was given for that was the Christian God, right? Like that was the language that I was gifted. So for a very long time, I was like, that's exactly what it is. And then,
Katelyn Andree (01:09:48.452)
Mm -hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:09:52.606)
Yes.
Reese Brown (01:10:05.43)
as I began talking with my parents more and had some unfortunate experiences in the church and with people of Christian faith, which I think is a really unfortunate aspect of a lot of people's experience with Christianity, but a lot of different religions as well. It really motivated me to investigate and get curious. And I got really deep into Hinduism and Buddhism around middle school.
Katelyn Andree (01:10:16.628)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:10:33.714)
Interesting.
Reese Brown (01:10:35.398)
And around that same time, I was kind of stepping into my own as a writer and interested in poetry and this really beautiful intersection between Eastern religious traditions and writing extremely fascinated me. And so then it just kind of broke open this exploration of, okay, well also how are the different Abrahamic traditions intertwined and how does that go back to Zoroastrianism as like the first
Katelyn Andree (01:10:58.587)
yeah.
Reese Brown (01:11:03.936)
monotheistic religion and actually how did we get there and the history behind it and the context behind it and so now more than anything I think I'm very much a believer in I mean even as I talk about this you'll hear me say universe God source I am like all of these different words because I do think there is something so unspeakable about that
power that all of these words and all of these religions and faith systems point to. And one of my favorite metaphors said, I can't remember where I heard it, but I feel like I heard it. But now I'm like, did I make it up? I, that's why I can't remember I heard it, but maybe not. But is that there's a light bulb behind a wall and this wall is covered in holes and each hole is a different access point to see the same light bulb. Right. And
Katelyn Andree (01:11:45.858)
hahahaha
Reese Brown (01:12:01.238)
I really think that I've taken a step back from the wall and I am just so curious about how all of these different holes got here and what we all pick a hole to see through to see this source. And I think you can get really close to it when you dive really deeply into one access point. But just that innate human curiosity is to me part of the beauty of spirituality and connecting to one another.
And so to put a label on it, I tend to say I'm spiritual slash agnostic, not in that I don't know if there's a higher power. I definitely believe in a higher power, but it's hard for me to give a title, not to say that I may not one day, I may not discover something that feels really aligned, but it's also difficult when it's like, I believe in Jesus, big Jesus girl.
Katelyn Andree (01:12:47.24)
Mm
Katelyn Andree (01:12:58.546)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:12:59.138)
but it also feels wrong to call myself a Christian when I hold these other beliefs as well. And same thing with like Buddhism. love like Zen Buddhism especially. There's so many beautiful practices in that that it felt so resonant to me, but also feels a little dishonest to call myself a Buddhist when I hold so many other beliefs. So I try and just be as...
Katelyn Andree (01:13:04.563)
Mm.
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:13:15.604)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:13:20.766)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (01:13:23.476)
open as possible. I think sometimes that can, in these conversations come across as a bit obfuscated, which is not the intention. I do think when talking about language and nuance is very important, but especially when it comes to someone's faith system, I think respect is always something that I want to hold at the forefront of that as well, because I want my spirituality to be a source of connection and not butting heads or
Katelyn Andree (01:13:32.542)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:13:45.449)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:13:49.192)
Yes.
Reese Brown (01:13:53.454)
disconnect, I think is unfortunately what we see happen a lot today. So that's, I said brief overview and then talk for 10 minutes. Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:14:01.968)
No, I love it. I love it because I think, you what I love in that story is your like insatiable curiosity and how you're kind of pulling the thread to then like kind of like, I wonder how it got here and like learning. And I think there's something so beautiful about that. And I think with faith and spiritual, like maybe within like the traditional faith.
and maybe I'm just speaking about Christianity, think sometimes that act of questioning, like the Bible or questioning what is being said is seen in a really negative light. But I think it's a natural part of anybody's religious slash spiritual experience is to ask those hard questions and learn. And like that
Reese Brown (01:14:31.564)
No, please.
Reese Brown (01:14:46.968)
Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:14:55.986)
like some of the most formative folks in the Bible did that, you know? And it's like, that is so natural and human and I think necessary, I think, to get to your truth or to kind of understand how to make meaning all these really complex.
Reese Brown (01:15:00.075)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:15:07.608)
Yes.
Reese Brown (01:15:16.888)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (01:15:23.198)
things in the world and you're hearing all these different versions of it. But I think this like, like, I don't think it's a bad thing to question and be critical. You know, like, we should be we should be questioned and questioning and critical of all things that that I feel like are being indoctrinated or told to you, you know, I think that's a very natural thing. And I don't think it's a bad thing. So
Reese Brown (01:15:36.515)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:15:50.324)
I... yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:15:50.706)
Kudos to you to kind of like embarking on that journey so young and having that sense of exploration and curiosity.
Reese Brown (01:16:00.76)
Thank you. I do think a lot of it was encouraged by having parents that were like, we wanted to give you a framework, but we're still exploring too. And so I think in some ways having that natural curiosity nurtured really helped. But also I think some people are just innately more curious about certain things than others. And I know like this spiritual conversation is like,
Katelyn Andree (01:16:10.248)
Yeah. Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:16:26.132)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (01:16:29.462)
my favorite conversation have another people I'll talk to and they're like, I'm just not that worried about it, you know? And it's like, that's, that's okay too, if that's your, your cup of tea. But I do think the one thing that you said that is the most important to me is getting to our own definition of truth. And I think we each have our own lower T truth, but then there is a capital T truth that I don't think any of us are going to fully understand in this lifetime, but
Hopefully, we get to eventually, think that is hopefully the goal. To round out this beautiful convert, or were you gonna say something? I don't wanna cut you off. Please, no, no, please, please, please.
Katelyn Andree (01:17:11.166)
I was just gonna say one more thing. Sorry, I'm just like really enjoying this conversation. The one thing and I'm also passionate about like wellbeing and I think this area of spirituality is like not something that folks really understand. But if your listeners or if you are curious, I'm not sure if you've heard of or know of the work of Dr. Lisa Miller, of really...
doing a lot of research on the science of spirituality and the benefits of having a spiritual or religious practice. And it's fascinating. And she has a book called The Awakened Brain. And she literally does like brain scans and digs into this element of like...
If someone has a spiritual practice or like as part of a faith tradition, what does that do to your brain and thus to your like well -being? And so I would encourage you to check that out. And the Cliff's Notes says it doesn't matter what faith tradition or like what you believed. If you did though believe and have a spiritual calling, it has these amazing effects, positive effects to your cognitive mental functioning. So anyway.
Reese Brown (01:18:06.99)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:18:29.554)
My plug, you're giving me God and country. out Dr. Lisa Miller. Yes.
Reese Brown (01:18:29.918)
No. Yeah. Dr. Lisa Miller. Miller? Yes. And I will link all of that down below as well if our listeners want an easy entry access point. You can just scroll on down and check it out because that is so fascinating. And I think the overlap between spirituality and wellbeing exists very heavily for a reason, right? It is, there is such a,
Katelyn Andree (01:18:53.822)
Yes.
Reese Brown (01:19:00.494)
My friend calls it vinning when it's like the Venn diagram there is like similar. It's like, yeah, spirituality and wellbeing definitely Venn. They definitely Venn, which I love. Okay, final two questions. One, in light of our conversation and everything we've talked about, is there anything we haven't covered that you're like, I need to throw this out there? Anything you want to go back to? Anything you'd like to clarify or anything that you would like to?
Katelyn Andree (01:19:02.868)
I love that I haven't heard that. Venning, okay. Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:19:28.974)
plug and talk about for the listeners.
Katelyn Andree (01:19:32.22)
Yeah, okay. So the one thing that we haven't gotten to that I would like to plug because it's so interconnected to this conversation is one of my best friends and I like Gentibo are co -facilitated and co -lead a retreat and it is like the weekend that like I want to do to like decompress and reconnect with myself and others and
Reese Brown (01:19:40.386)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (01:20:02.554)
And it's really kind of, think, like a sacred space of like just for women and femmes to like come disconnect for four days and three nights, live in a house together, have chef prepared meals, and really kind of remove a lot of the external like to -do list and tasks to create a space where you can reconnect with yourself and reconnect with others.
Reese Brown (01:20:06.536)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:20:32.006)
and connect with others. And so it's been this like really fun adventure. Neither of us had like done retreats, but we're both kind of coaches. And she threw out this idea. was like, we should do this. And I'm like, I'm in. And we did it last year. It was the first year. And so just, you know, we're to be diving into more of CliftonStrengths and doing one well -being kind of session.
but have like a weekend of optional events, but available to you of yoga and sound baths and this workshop set in this beautiful setting in Southern California, right on the nature reserve. I would love for you, for your listeners to kind of check it out as it's been.
Reese Brown (01:21:24.236)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (01:21:29.836)
a big joy for me. And I would say, you know, I mentioned that my mom passed last December and this first retreat that I hosted was six weeks later. And, you know, I had created this, this weekend with my friend Jen thinking like, I'm going to give this experience to others and I can't wait. And I was the one who needed to be held and supported. And it, it was,
Reese Brown (01:21:31.651)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:21:52.302)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:21:59.206)
It was just an incredible weekend and for me it's like, it's kind of life, right? You think that you're like, I'm doing this for others, but then I'm creating this weekend when I needed it the most. and.
Katelyn Andree (01:22:14.584)
I'll share this and I was going to share too, but like at that first weekend, you know, my mom was the first person to sign up. She was supposed to be there. And, you know, obviously she wasn't there physically, but she also was. And that was beautiful because we did one session of some like transcendental like breath work and one of the other.
Reese Brown (01:22:22.542)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (01:22:32.12)
But she also was.
Katelyn Andree (01:22:44.904)
participants and I never met her. But she came up to me afterwards and she's like, I'm debating if I should tell you this or not. But during my experience, I felt and saw your mom in this room and I had, and she comes from a kind of a Latin background. So this like deep respect for, you know, your ancestors. And she said, I felt this.
Reese Brown (01:23:12.61)
Mm -hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:23:14.64)
overwhelming sense of calm and peace. And I just knew that it was your mom. And I was like, I just lost it because that's what she meant to me. That's what she made people feel. And so like she had no idea about that. I hadn't shared that. I mean, I'd shared that my mom was supposed to be there and I had lost her, but
Reese Brown (01:23:35.373)
Mm.
Katelyn Andree (01:23:43.814)
So it's this like, it was this beautiful moment. And for me, it was so beautiful to have her share that story. And she was like, I was nervous. I don't know if I should have told you or not. And I'm like, no, please, because that's how she made others feel. And some may see that as feel like that's wacky, but like to me, was so meaningful. And I do believe that she was there.
Reese Brown (01:23:56.611)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:24:08.078)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:24:13.632)
Absolutely. Anyone that is listening is ready to embark on this beautiful experience. All of the information will be in the description down below. Absolutely. And I think that that story just speaks to, I mean, the safe, sacred space that is created when women gather with the intention of self -care and connection. It truly is such a sacred space. think that speaks to you and
Katelyn Andree (01:24:20.25)
Ha ha ha ha
Katelyn Andree (01:24:31.41)
Yes.
Katelyn Andree (01:24:39.006)
Yes.
Reese Brown (01:24:42.338)
your friend as well and the intention behind creating this. So I highly encourage everyone to check it out wherever you are accessing the podcast, you'll be able to do so down below. And final question to wrap out this conversation is just what is one word that describes how you are feeling right now?
Katelyn Andree (01:25:15.32)
grateful. I'm very grateful.
Reese Brown (01:25:16.749)
Hmm.
Katelyn Andree (01:25:20.852)
for this conversation and for the space that you've created here.
Katelyn Andree (01:25:31.71)
I'm just grateful to connect with you and on this deep level.
Katelyn Andree (01:25:45.844)
I'm just grateful.
Reese Brown (01:25:47.606)
Me too. I think that is the perfect place. Yeah.
Katelyn Andree (01:25:48.822)
Hahaha!
Do you feel like what is your one word?
Reese Brown (01:25:55.576)
There's so every now and then someone will flip it back and it's always so funny because I'm like, I've always caught off guard and I shouldn't be. think.
Reese Brown (01:26:07.074)
You know, grateful is always kind of on the tip of my tongue to reach for, but I think also...
Reese Brown (01:26:18.722)
connected. It's, it's such an honor to do this podcast, even very similar to your story of the retreats where it's something that truly is intended to be an offering, but I received tenfold from it. And it really feeds my soul to be able to
connect really deeply and it gives me an excuse to ask the inappropriate questions that you shouldn't ask at dinner parties, but I can say, tell me what you think about God and it's great. And I love doing it. Yeah. But it really does help me feel connected, not only of course to you and to our broader community, but also to myself and to my purpose, which is just.
Katelyn Andree (01:26:56.346)
Yeah! I know, I love it!
Reese Brown (01:27:12.876)
I can't ask for anything more. So thank you so much for being a part of that and for sharing so vulnerably and openly and sharing your time and energy here today. I truly cannot thank you enough.
Katelyn Andree (01:27:28.788)
Thank you. You are a gift and I was so nervous coming into this conversation, but you are such a gracious and beautiful host and what you're creating here is so needed. So thank you for your gift and your servant's heart to creating space for meaningful conversations. So your gift. Thank you.
Reese Brown (01:27:40.974)
Thank you.