Don’t Miss the Forest for the Trees: Opening Our Eyes to the Everyday Divine
Reese Brown (00:00.526)
Okay. Beautiful. Beth and Leah, thank you so very much for taking the time and space to be here with me today and to discuss your beautiful book, The Spirituality of Trees, The Wisdom of Trees. To get us started, I would just love to hear one thing from each of you that you are feeling grateful for right now.
Leah Rampy (00:31.552)
Well, I'll jump in to say that I just got back from leading a retreat this weekend and I have spent the morning sitting out on the porch and the birds are singing so beautifully and the pussy willows are blooming and there's all these little green sprouts coming out on the bushes and the trees now. So just this capacity of
earth to regenerate herself every spring and dress in glorious greens. It's really amazing.
Reese Brown (01:09.655)
I love it.
Beth Norcross (01:11.618)
Well, I'll jump in. I was thinking something similar. We have here in DC, which is where I'm located, we of course have our annual cherry blossoms. And unlike most of us who live in the DC area, I try to find the most crowded touristy time to go down, which I did on Saturday. And I just, not only do I love this annual rite of spring in the midst of so much uncertainty,
in Washington, you can actually sort of see the White House from the cherry blossoms. There is this ritualistic cherry blooming, but also just gratitude for all of the people who are so awestruck by this wondrous event that happens every year. People throng to DC to just to be a part of it. And they're all taking photos and
Reese Brown (02:02.009)
Hmm.
Beth Norcross (02:09.07)
putting their cherry blossoms on their heads like crowns. It's just a delight. And it just reminds me of the certainty of some natural events that fly in the face of all the uncertainty that we're feeling right now.
Reese Brown (02:27.782)
Mm, I love that. And it's true, the cyclical nature of everything, right? I think sometimes the scariest things, the scariest part of the scariest things is that it feels like it's going to be that way forever. It feels like it's never ending, but nature is one of those beautiful reminders that that's just not true. Everything has its time and exists within this beautiful cycle. And there's all sorts of
rebirth and death that happens all around us. I also love that you go during busy tourist times. I, living in Florence, there's tourists all around me, especially right now as tourist season is kicking back up. And I was just talking to a friend earlier today actually about how when the tourists first started appearing, I found myself getting frustrated with like, there's, they need to take a photo here. And this is
This is my route that I walked to get to my Italian language class and now I have to walk around the tourists and then I caught myself. I was like, why am I getting so frustrated? Where is that coming from? These people have come to the city that I am lucky enough to live in and...
are struck with the beauty and majesty of what I get to see every single day. And there is something so beautiful about the reminder, right? That tourists allow me to see this in fresh eyes. So I love that you have that moment as well. That's really beautiful.
Well, to get into the book a little bit, the question I always ask when I'm one-on-one with guests is, what is your story? But knowing that this book has to have a beautiful story behind it and a beautiful story of collaboration as well, I would like to ask, what is the story of this book? How did it come about? Why did both of you decide to partner to write on this topic?
Reese Brown (04:36.07)
What does your collaboration have to do with this beautiful book and how do you kind of think about its story today as it's about to be released into the world?
Leah Rampy (04:51.422)
Why don't you start that,
Beth Norcross (04:55.438)
Well, Leah's and my collaboration goes back many years now. We came together out of a mutual, not only love of the natural world, but in seeing something really deep and beautiful and meaningful and truth-filled in the natural world. And she ultimately became our board chair at the Center for Spirituality and Nature. And we started doing a number of programs together. And both of us are
are tree lovers, and we initially put together a six-week video class. And I think the story of this book would not be complete with just the response to that six-week video class, which is still available, by the way, online at the Center for Spirituality and Nature. Thank you.
Reese Brown (05:46.896)
We'll absolutely link that down below for listeners to go access.
Beth Norcross (05:52.622)
It was so clear to us from the beginning that people are so moved by these elders. And they were so open to receiving the wisdom of trees. it was such fun to work together. I think I'm going to let Leah take it from that course onto the book. But I'll just say that.
What I learned from the course and ultimately learned from the book is that the whole is in fact greater than the sum of the parts. That the conversation that Leah and I had in doing the course and writing the book was so meaningful and certainly enriched my own understanding of the wisdom of trees. And hopefully that came out in the book. So Leah, I'll let you take the story up from here.
Reese Brown (06:27.878)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (06:45.958)
Yeah, sure. Well, we were really happy to be approached by Broadleaf Books and asked to write this based on the fact that we had done the program. Now, I hasten to say that teaching a six-session class is not the same as writing a book. And, you know, there are far more than six chapters in the book about double that.
Reese Brown (07:06.662)
Sure.
Leah Rampy (07:15.744)
So we had new material that we were bringing in, which in fact we both loved because we both love the idea of ecology as a way to help us create a baseline understanding of the living world. And we love the awe and wonder that we derive from reading about and learning more.
than we knew about water and soil and the, you know, the resilience of trees and on and on. So that's one thing is we actually loved being in that conversation and in the conversation with each other, but also in the conversation with other authors who had written extensively about trees and in the conversation with the trees themselves. Yeah.
Reese Brown (08:02.608)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (08:11.206)
Mm-hmm.
Leah Rampy (08:12.218)
So it was really a great community that we had to do this. Then I would say that I do think that friends probably thought we were a little bit crazy to take on the idea of co-authoring a book. is an endeavor that one can start with their imagination.
considering all that could go wrong with that as a possibility. And none of it did. None of it did. It was a wonderful experience. And I will say, I believe it was a real example of synergy. That the whole is more than the sum of the parts in that we each wrote separate chapters. We read each other's chapters. We made recommendations and edits.
Reese Brown (08:41.926)
Yes.
Reese Brown (08:55.291)
Mm.
Leah Rampy (09:07.04)
We came back around multiple times. We supported and reinforced each other. Occasionally, you know, I would just say, just write this paragraph, Beth, I can't do it. I don't know what I'm saying here, you know. So there was a lot of that kind of support that even though to some extent we have different voices and different experiences,
Reese Brown (09:33.946)
Mm-hmm.
Leah Rampy (09:35.986)
I think because of the back and forth, we were able to blend our voices to the point where Beth's husband said at one point, I was reading this and I wasn't sure who had written it. And we thought, well, that's good because we don't mind different voices, but we don't want to jar the reader to have such a disparate experience from chapter to chapter that it doesn't flow smoothly. So it was a good process.
Reese Brown (10:04.644)
Absolutely, and I think the final product that I was able to receive and listen to, think one of the beautiful things about this kind of conversation that you have with each other betwixt the chapters really allows for trees and their message to come through as the key author, right? It does feel very much,
Leah Rampy (10:29.577)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (10:32.986)
at least in my experience of reading the book, both of you, while of course every author writer has different experiences and approaches to creating a book, it felt very much like you both allowed yourselves to be a mediator for this wisdom to be spoken through you, right? Which I think was really, really powerful and kind of the beautiful meeting of your two minds.
Leah Rampy (10:55.392)
Good.
Reese Brown (11:03.095)
Before we go any further, were you going to say something? I don't want to you off.
Beth Norcross (11:07.49)
Just what a lovely insight. I don't know that we identified that as, know, but certainly it is what.
It was a natural progression. mean, if you're going to talk about the wisdom of trees, you need to listen to the wisdom of trees. And the fact that the trees were really the author, or certainly an essential co-author, is really a wonderful insight. I'm going to have to gnaw on that a little bit. I hope that's true. I hope that's true. Yeah.
Reese Brown (11:21.796)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (11:34.479)
Yes.
Reese Brown (11:39.5)
absolutely.
Leah Rampy (11:42.335)
Yeah, yeah.
Reese Brown (11:42.98)
Yeah, well, and not to take anything away from either of your authorship as well. I think, like you said, it's this beautiful co-authorship that it lends itself to, which is just really cool experience to read it. It does feel like you are in communion with all of these things. And when the book is in physical form, people will have paper there in front of them, right? They will have some sort of
semblance of trees of that physical world. I do want to hold space before moving forward for the fires that we are seeing in California. That was something that really struck me since it's so recent. And even Beth, you bringing up the uncertainty that we are seeing in DC right now and just this convergence of a lot of
Leah Rampy (12:14.516)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (12:40.998)
chaotic energy and I know Leah you talk about climate chaos that was a big portion of our conversation the last time we were I was fortunate enough to be able to chat with you. Yeah, so I don't think I have any specific question there, but I did just want to raise that as something for us to sit with and acknowledge. Does that bring anything up for
both of you as you know, we move into Earth Day coming up and this beautiful planet that we inhabit, we're trying to move towards healing, but we are amid climate chaos and maybe how is this book a step towards repair, towards healing, towards reparations with the earth?
Leah Rampy (13:38.728)
Well, I want to name that grief is ever present and that certainly the fires in California, but also the fires now in North Carolina, where so many trees were lost during the hurricane, Helene that struck there, and then they are vulnerable now to fire in ways beyond what they might have been before.
We see it over and over and it's heartbreaking. And I think part of the challenge we have is to allow that to be present for us, to bear witness to those losses, to allow our hearts to break open. You know, I think we probably talked about the wisdom of our
wonderful elder Joanna Macy, who has been doing this kind of work for decades and decades, who reminds us that when our hearts break open, they can hold more and they have the capacity, our hearts have the capacity to hold more sorrow and also more beauty and joy and love for this world. So I think acknowledging and naming our grief and
collectively creating some rituals for sharing that so that we can bear that together. We're not a dominant Western culture that has a lot of good, solid grief rituals, and we're not really one that has learned to speak of loss in ways that help us heal.
That's an important communal effort, I think, is to be in that kind of conversation. And then I'll let you pick it up from here, Beth, because we also think that there are calls for us as individuals to live into our gifts, to take action. We can't just love the trees and warn them. We also are invited into specific ways of addressing some of the harm we're causing.
Reese Brown (15:29.126)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (15:54.918)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (15:55.562)
Thank you for that, Leah, that importance. And we tried to make that a theme of the book, that importance of not only mourning and grieving, but then taking action out of that grief. I just wanted to, one of the things we talk about too in the book is fire in and of itself is a very natural act. And in fact, the natural world needs fire.
as we mentioned in the book, there are these serotonous, I love that term, serotonous cones that need fire to open. And of course, the extent of the fires is on us. The way that we've altered the climate, the way that we've allowed fuel to build up, I mean, there's lots and lots of things. And my heart goes out, that's not to say
Well, fire is natural, but of course it's harmful and the people are suffering and I wonder about the animals also, the non-human community that's suffering as well. And so my hope, I guess, is that this fire that's quite literally and metaphorically engulfing us right now will cause an opening so that
Reese Brown (17:01.03)
Hmm.
Beth Norcross (17:22.328)
So that seeds in fact can spread that wouldn't normally be available. This awakening to the devastation that we've caused and.
the implanting in the soil in a way that we can act.
Reese Brown (17:42.79)
What a beautiful image. I hope so too. And I love that you ended that with hope. That has been a really common theme for me recently in a lot of this justice work. I actually just saw a clip of John Green, the author. He recently did an interview with NPR. And he's talking about how that is the
the persistent necessity of the human condition is that we must return to hope. I do think that there is some hope that we can learn from the trees as well in this way, right? And it reminds me of something else that you discuss in the book that talks about how life begins in darkness.
but that darkness also begins in light. I didn't write down the exact page number, unfortunately, but I will certainly quote that in the description down below. And I thought that that was such a beautiful reminder of the necessity of not just the duality, but the multiplicity of experiences. One thing is I have been growing and changing and evolving and getting comfortable with different aspects of myself and
Leah Rampy (18:56.948)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (19:07.536)
different shadow parts and all of these things that we hear about in psychology. I've really been thinking about how the brighter a light is, the farther, the longer, the deeper a shadow it casts, right? There is this necessary relationship there.
Talk to me about this duality. Why was it important to include that in this work that discusses nature, but also our connection to it as spiritual beings?
Beth Norcross (19:46.232)
Leah, that's your chapter. I'm gonna let you start off. I have a few thoughts.
Leah Rampy (19:46.688)
Well, I was going to say I will start it off because I love that conversation. And I want you if I don't happen to to be sure to talk about when leaves want to stretch toward the light, how they have to grow because that's such an important example of the conversation that strikes me is that we tend to impose labels and judgments of good and bad around light and dark.
Reese Brown (20:02.318)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (20:17.32)
And the capacity for light and dark to be nurturing of trees and of all of us is sometimes lost in the way that we think about. We must always be in the light. We know that trees are stretching toward the light. We know that photosynthesis matters. And we also know that trees droop and sleep and that they
have a much more silent time in the winter and that those leaves are just waiting for more light, but they're there being growing and seasoning in the dark. Probably our favorite story that we keep telling over and over has to do with an acorn. And the need for an acorn to crack open
to grow a deep taproot by spending the winter time in the dark, in the soil, in the cold, and to grow that deep taproot and then be able to spread the roots out from there in order to really move into becoming the essence of who they are always meant to be, which is a great oaks.
and the doesn't take a lot of drawing parallels to our own hidden wholeness, to use a phrase that Thomas Merton, mystic and priest would have used, did use, our own hidden wholeness, this essence of who we are invited to be, that is growing in the darkness.
Reese Brown (21:57.03)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (22:12.188)
and that at some point requires us to crack open to fulfill those gifts that we have been given. There's so much we could say about light and dark and their stories that we tell about the importance of both. But let me let you pick it up a little bit, Beth, because there's such fun things to talk about in that realm.
Beth Norcross (22:37.57)
Thank
You know, we do talk about light and dark a lot in the book and in the class. And I was leading another class last week on spring and what spring has to offer us. And I was caught up short because we can talk about light and dark, but living in the dark is hard. It's challenging. And, you know, to live with...
our own part of living in the dark is living with our own complicity in the climate crisis. It's living with pain and it's living with heartbreak. So I just want to be sure that we're not being glib about this, that this is really, we recognize that this is tough, challenging, difficult stuff. And it's not to say that we should intentionally put ourselves in
Reese Brown (23:10.959)
Mmm.
Beth Norcross (23:36.822)
in bad situations that are not healthy for us, just so that we can go into the dark and crack open. But so often we find ourselves in the dark. we, I think the trees tell us that we're called to rest there and to allow ourselves to be vulnerable. What Leah was talking about, when she was teasing this
Reese Brown (23:59.215)
Hmm
Beth Norcross (24:06.03)
piece of science that we stumbled on a few years ago that as we know, as we can see trees that they move toward the light and they're often bent and twisted. And you wonder, we talked about our story. What's the story of that tree that made it have to go this way and then this way? But what we discovered was that in the leaves, of course, are the only, you know, they're the primary light bearing part of the tree.
And so it's the leaves that bring the tree in toward the light. And what we found out was that the stretching of the leaf toward the light actually happens on its dark side.
that the movement toward the light starts in the dark of the leaf. And we just found this to be a really heartening aspect of science. And we haven't talked too much today about science, but this science that sort of just opens us up to this awe and wonder and this lesson that so often our our metaphorical move to the light
really does start in the darkness. It starts on that shadow side that you and Jung and others have talked about.
Reese Brown (25:24.367)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (25:31.749)
Yeah.
Beth Norcross (25:32.302)
And just one more thing, we could have a whole conversation about light and dark, but we mentioned this in the book too, is that so much of that mystery, what we might call spirit, others have different names for it, is often in the dark. And I talk in the book about a pine grove that was growing underground, well beyond my sight. didn't know, we couldn't possibly know.
Reese Brown (25:34.598)
Please.
Beth Norcross (26:01.666)
what was under the ground in the dark, ready to emerge as this beautiful piece of creation. And so in terms of the world of hope, we're all kind of clinging to so much of the mystery of what might and could happen, societally, politically, environmentally, may in fact be still in the dark. And that gives me
Reese Brown (26:28.388)
Hmm.
Beth Norcross (26:32.158)
a lot of some calm, I guess, what might be happening. What's stirring down there in the dark? What seeds are germinating and being planted? And we can see this with the acts of hundreds of thousands of people around the world right now in various capacities.
Reese Brown (26:52.644)
Yes, absolutely. I love that you said that it's brilliant. love just sitting and listening. These are my favorite conversations to have. Thank you for going on. It's so joyous. Talking about the science piece too, that was something that really struck me was both of you have this ability to kind of bridge the science and spirit together, which...
Beth Norcross (26:55.106)
We warned you we could go on about this.
Leah Rampy (27:02.452)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (27:22.124)
I love, I think as...
humans living in the information age, right? We have anything we could possibly want to know right at our fingertips. There is this movement towards a strict logical rationalism that kind of asks us to not ignore, but maybe quiet down the intuitive.
divine sense, Calvin would call it the census divinitatis that we all kind of have. And my own lived experience is that science and spirituality actually uplift each other quite a bit. The more that I learn about, I mean, even just that the leaves yearn for the light from the dark side. It's like, that is pure science and pure spirit, both and. Talk to me about the importance of
Leah Rampy (28:07.827)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (28:22.992)
bridging these two gaps and why that was something that you wanted to bring into the book. Of course, there's spiritual practices that you offer throughout the book as well that are beautiful. I could see a world wherein this book is purely spirit driven, right? I could also see a world wherein the book is very science driven and just talks about, you know, more of the...
maybe psychology, science kind of side of self growth. But you both do a really beautiful job of bringing this together and it feels really embodied, right? That it's something that we can live out both this knowledge of the natural world and the felt sense of something divine that's bigger than us. What is it like to bring those worlds together and why is that important in this work?
Leah Rampy (29:00.149)
Hmm.
Beth Norcross (29:20.878)
I can get started, Leah. I think really even in the time that I was in seminary many years ago, this distinction between science and spirituality really troubled me. Because even mentioning them as a duality is dangerous. It feels to me that they're really quite integrated. there's quite a history with
Leah Rampy (29:23.263)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (29:34.948)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (29:48.898)
the scientific revolution and then of course all that's dust up around Darwin. And it feels sometimes that there was sort of this uneasy truce where the science would take earth and religious community would take spirit. it caused us to think of those things as separately. But I think for both of us that they are so
intertwined, they are so completely connected that it would be, we wanted to, I think we wanted to make the case for this intertwining of science and spirit. And as Leah has said before, that the science really awakens this sense of awe and wonder.
And the more you read, the more we read about trees, the more excited that we got about mystery and presence and divinity and all sort of mashed together. You can't read Suzanne Samard's work or Robin Wall Kimmer's work or any of these scientists without
Reese Brown (30:55.675)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (31:17.036)
wanting to know more about the presence that's interwoven in the science.
Reese Brown (31:24.102)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (31:26.292)
would just add, I also think that is, that's who we are and how we live into it. I don't think we spent a lot of time in the conversation in planning the class or in planning the book that had any sort of, how much science should this be? How much spirituality should this be? I've said before,
I like to write at the intersection of ecology, spirituality and story. And I think Beth, that's from where I observed Beth leading when she does walks or when she does speeches. And if I do retreats, they always have to have those elements. So I just think that is how we envision the world and how we have found helps others.
be welcomed into, an, an ecology that maybe that's not their reading, you know, they may not be reading the same books. I was mentioning, I just offered a retreat this past weekend and at the end, one of the women said, I have no idea who any of these people are. I don't even know the songwriter you were talking about, but you know, but
Reese Brown (32:32.826)
Mm.
Reese Brown (32:48.134)
You
Leah Rampy (32:52.672)
But that's what we are trying to do is because it is meaningful to us in this way to weave it together, we're also anticipating that there will be people for whom it is meaningful to hear this as an interwoven, unified, beautifully interconnected level of
of exchange, because it just feels like that's how the world is. And it's what I would say gives me life and liveliness to be in these kinds of conversations that bring these three dimensions together. And I feel like I've got a kindred spirit in bad thinness too. So we sort of build on each other in that way.
Reese Brown (33:33.744)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (33:43.662)
you
Reese Brown (33:49.371)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (33:49.454)
And by way of example, I would just mention, when we tried at the beginning of the book to give a little idea of what we meant when we said spirituality, it's so loaded now. And one of the concepts for us about spirit and presence that's so important is unity, is the connections in the living world. Well, science is showing us time and time and time again that
Leah Rampy (33:49.888)
Ahem.
Reese Brown (34:00.612)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Beth Norcross (34:19.596)
these connections are inextricable. are, that you cannot, as much as we try as humans to pull them apart. And so to us, the more that we read about the science of that, and Suzanne Simard has been so helpful in having us understand these connections between the fungi and the trees and everything in the mycelial network. That to me speaks
Reese Brown (34:42.043)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Norcross (34:49.59)
It speaks presence. tells us about this unifying something or the great whatever, as one of my colleagues says, that's out there pulling us all together. So to me, the science continues to reinforce the spiritual in that really important way.
Reese Brown (35:14.058)
Mm, I love that the great whatever that that's so sacred simplicity, right? But it's like, yeah, that in kind of talking about interweaving story as a piece of this as well. Storytelling is so powerful. It's what we as humans are encoded to do and how we connect. And one of the stories that really, really struck me is
Joelle Novy, believe is here quoting, was answering a question at a retreat that was, what is it like to be you? And to speak to this kind of connection piece, she uses the Hebrew and I'm going to mispronounce it, but biakad, which is together, but mindful of the oneness that that is really this energy that she felt in this moment. And it made me think, you know,
How often do we miss the forest for the trees? But that also the gift slash curse both and of humanity is that we are in this singular experience, right? I am only experiencing the reasonness of my little dimension of consciousness. And yet,
Leah Rampy (36:15.039)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (36:38.48)
there is something that is so deeply connected to Leah and Beth and the trees and all these networks around me. Talk to me about the lesson there that we don't want to miss the whole forest for the trees, but still having appreciation for our singular experience in that as well. And how do we balance those two facets of
our human experience.
Leah Rampy (37:12.894)
You want to start that one or you want me to jump in? Okay.
Beth Norcross (37:14.366)
Yeah, I'll jump in. I mean, I think that is the lesson of the trees. It really is. It's each individual tree with its own value, its own importance, its own mechanisms, and yet deeply dependent on the rest of the organisms in the forest. And I think it's a great example of how we can
Reese Brown (37:19.622)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (37:44.192)
live in this increasingly independent driven world as community. really, the forest tells us, the trees tell us, I can look out for myself, I can move toward the light, but I also can give a warning signal to the rest of the trees if there's an insect infestation. I mean, it is the
It is the lesson of the forest. And a quick shout out to Joelle. Joelle is the leader of Interfaith Power and Light, DMV in the district, and really has done some extraordinary work at the intersection of faith and climate work. she came to that retreat. She was in deep despair. And she really took comfort by this conversation.
in realizing that she was not alone in this work, that the, not only were her colleagues who were her human colleagues there, but the forest was there with her, holding her and holding this work and acting in its own behalf as well.
Reese Brown (38:47.558)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (39:02.416)
Wow. Yeah.
Beth Norcross (39:02.648)
So Leah, I'll let you take it from there.
Leah Rampy (39:03.93)
Yeah, just thanks Beth. I just want to add to that, just maybe a slightly additional way of thinking about this and that is that we all come with an individual mission. I believe that that that is our soul work and I'm speaking of the soul work of a tree as well as you and me. And so as an individual tree.
I have this opportunity to give away resources that I have cultivated. I take the nutrients that I have garnered through photosynthesis and I can send those through the fungal network to my can so that if there are ones who are suffering in the forest because they are in places of deprivation for water or because they can't get to the light,
and I'm a member of an old beach forest, I can send that nutrient to those trees so that they are equally healthy and the entire forest remains a healthy environment. So I have that individual gift that I can manifest.
You know, that's that hidden wholeness that we talked about earlier, that way in which I can bring something unique and precious. And I can never be separate. You know, I say that Beth and I are both drinking of the Potomac River. And that water is within us. And every time we are eating our salads for lunch, those plants are becoming
Reese Brown (40:26.63)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (40:52.698)
our cells. I don't have separate cells, as you know, and they are made and remade over and over again with this amazing photosynthesized goodness that only a plant knows how to do. And I am eating that. That becomes me. So how to separate me from everything else is impossible.
and why would we want to? So we have these, it's a both and, and it's the beautiful paradox of how we can live in this world as an individual with gifts that are being called forth and as an inextricable member of the whole. Microbiome is such a great example of that, you know, those little careers that we don't even f-
Reese Brown (41:32.422)
Mm.
Leah Rampy (41:47.562)
think about that are within us, all over us, the multitudes we contain are defining how we are feeling, our emotions, our state of wellness, and we're just ignoring them like they don't matter at all, you know? So, so it's, it's both, it's both, it's both, and we have to hold that, even though in many ways it's quite beyond our comprehension.
Reese Brown (42:06.789)
Mm.
Reese Brown (42:14.086)
Right, right, sometimes it's easier to hold it when we're sitting in the isolation because to...
Leah Rampy (42:23.69)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (42:26.584)
I would get nothing done if I was just thinking about the vastness of experience all day, right? I do want to reflect the question that you asked right back at you, which is in the midst of your answer. You said, can't separate it, and why would we want to? And I tend to agree with you. I find that very intuitive, that there is something so beautiful about this connection that we have.
to be grateful for the food that we're eating and how it is becoming us and how as our body processes it, our waste, like carbon dioxide, what we no longer need from the nutrients, goes back into the earth and we are a part of this beautiful cycle. Of course, why would we want to ignore that and ignore the gratitude for that? I have to think because of where we are now amid of all the...
climate chaos and everything, insert any number of words here, that there are people who would rather just not think about it for a multitude of reasons, but some of them might be, that's really great in principle. I love thinking about these things. But then the podcast is going to end and maybe I've learned something about leaves, maybe I've taken a little bit of...
inspiration and when I go outside this evening, I'll see a tree and think, wow, yeah, that is really beautiful. And then move on throughout my day. What is the thing that would take the wisdom from this past that point of, wow, that was a cool, cool conversation. Next into, okay, how do we integrate this into our lives?
If there is someone who is saying, yeah, I get it, I'm connected, why, you know, it's not my journey, not for me. What is that piece that you would call listeners into to really bring this into conversation? I hope that that question makes sense. But someone who may not be as intuitively
Reese Brown (44:49.868)
receptive to these notions, how might they begin to integrate it into their lives?
Leah Rampy (45:01.034)
Do want to start that one? Such a great question. Such a great question. Yeah.
Reese Brown (45:09.328)
you might be on mute, Beth.
Beth Norcross (45:13.09)
How's that better? Yeah, sorry, my fancy new microphone. I think I must, I think I bumped it. It is the question, isn't it? You we can talk and talk and talk. And you know, there's that great song from My Fair Lady, you know, if you love me, show me, I can't remember how it goes, but it was, it's all about talk. And I think that I would,
Reese Brown (45:13.456)
There you are. Yes.
I know you're good.
Beth Norcross (45:42.518)
The first step always in the work that I'm trying to do anyway is to ask people to see. Just to see and to notice and to be intentional about attention. And I think that it's the first step toward what one might call active love. I think it was John Seed who said, we're not gonna say what we don't love.
Reese Brown (45:49.958)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (46:09.656)
But I'd go a step further and say, we're not going to love what we don't see. there's an awful lot now that's being recommended in regard to mindfulness. And we can't go to a bookstore. I think there's a mindfulness section now. And so we can extend our mindfulness to the non-human. And by attending...
Reese Brown (46:27.15)
you
Beth Norcross (46:38.796)
Leah can talk about the tuned five-stringed but encouraging us to see not only with our eyes, but also with all of our senses. Just to take it in, I tell a story in the book about a woman who we asked this question, what is it like to be you? She was a master gardener, and she got down on her hands and knees and spent some time with an aunt.
Reese Brown (46:58.928)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Norcross (47:06.013)
And she had gone through the certification to be this master gardener. And she came out and said, I'm not the master. I'm not the master of the ant. I am one. I am a fellow creature. And so just taking the time to spend five minutes with a tree or an ant to begin to see, to begin to notice, and then you notice again, right?
And then that leads to another noticing. And as we notice the end of that exercise, what is it like to be you, is am I doing anything to harm you? Am I doing anything to harm you? And as we look around, you know, to our wooden framed houses and our wooden bookcases and paper and all the ways that we use trees.
Can we begin to look at our trees and say, are we harming you and how are we harming you? And then how can we, as we notice, we fall in love? It's like any new relationship. We start to hear the story of that person, that organism. And then as we fall in love, we hopefully will start acting out of love. But first we need to notice.
Reese Brown (48:17.606)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (48:35.384)
I love that. It really is a beautiful opening of a new love story. was talking just the other day, probably to myself in my apartment, about how any relationship is a love story, know, platonic, romantic, familial. We have all of these great love stories and how can we really begin to appreciate the romantic nature of all of these relationships, but we really need to appreciate it.
with these relationships as well to the earth, to these trees, to the things that take care of us. And I suppose all throw out there as well, if this is a new love story for a listener, that's beautiful. But also if it's an old love story for a listener and you're being reminded of your young first tree love, to call back in that feeling, right? And what that evokes in you and to maybe return to some of that joy.
Beth Norcross (49:27.99)
You
Leah Rampy (49:28.649)
you
Reese Brown (49:35.686)
Leah, I'll let you share any thoughts you have about this as well.
Leah Rampy (49:38.496)
I think you put your finger on something really important there, Reese. Just recently, I asked a group of 30 retreatants to begin by just taking 10 minutes and I sort of did a guided reflection with them, asking them to think about an experience with a tree that was meaningful to them. And you know what? Everybody had one. Everybody had one. And then,
We gave them the opportunity in small groups to share that and they came back loving each other. You know, it's like it was so beautiful and it was just, it was there. It was there. And I am not saying that that may be true for everyone, but I will say it's true for many, many people that we know trees have attributes that are healing for us, that are enlivening for us.
There's all sorts of research about how people heal faster when they see trees out their window. There's research about when you smell the aerosols of trees, you are healed, you walk in a forest, your blood pressure's lowered. We may start out with the relationship about what can you do for me?
If we are attentive, back to what Beth is saying, if we're paying attention, then I think we also will name at some point gratitude. And that's another avenue into that relationship is to be open enough to realize that we are being given abundant gifts. And of course, gratitude itself is a spiritual practice as we know.
Reese Brown (51:07.11)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (51:24.528)
And it has all sorts of healing properties, you know, alone. If you're grateful for anything, you are in fact feeling better about yourself. It's, you know, it's in us. It is in us to want to be connected to the living world. Our ancestors, ancestors, ancestors had to be connected.
Reese Brown (51:26.746)
Mm-hmm.
Leah Rampy (51:51.594)
to this world and understand it and learn from it or we would not be here. You know, they had to know where the danger was, where the opportunities were, where the food was, what was going to come after them, you know, if they didn't know how to walk quietly in the forest. So that didn't just go away because we have suddenly walled ourselves inside a house.
There's a loneliness we feel when we are not connected to the living world. And when we are, we see all sorts of possibilities open and we crack open to that gratitude and that connection and that love. And then that becomes self-affirming, I think. But remembering may be a place to start. Remembering a time when...
Reese Brown (52:41.956)
Mm.
Reese Brown (52:46.79)
Hmm.
I really love that. As soon as you said that, was, of course, this one memory sprung to mind so clearly. And it really struck me with just the power of that and how consistent trees are within our stories and our narratives. One thing that's a bit of a tangent to this conversation, but I would really be remiss if
we didn't discuss it is also how you use pronouns to talk about the trees throughout the book. I think that as an authorial writerly choice, it's really important. And both of you step into the divine feminine. Of course, there's also some usage of they, them, non-binary pronouns and it, of course, as well, but
Beth Norcross (53:27.694)
Thank
Reese Brown (53:47.258)
Yeah, I'd love to hear about how using she, her pronouns for these majestic beings, but also other uses of talking about trees in this way, whether it be gender or sex and these divine kind of attributes and archetypes that we can both assign to and witness in trees. Why is that important as a writerly choice?
Leah Rampy (54:16.819)
Well, if you're okay, I'll start that as a personal choice, Beth, and then you can maybe also add some of the science in if you feel so inclined. So I was, I have been, and perhaps Beth would say the same thing, incredibly influenced by Robin Wall Kimmerer and her book on braiding sweetgrass. as anyone who has read her work will know, she speaks about the importance of seeing ourselves as kin.
She's not the only indigenous writer who also makes that point. Enrique Salmon speaks about concentric ecology and the importance of seeing how we are, as Robin Wachimer would say, the younger brother and sister of this world, this cosmic journey. We are such a tiny leaf on this cosmic tree, this family tree.
of all beings. And it really struck me that I had no experience of that in my growing up days, the idea of seeing and feeling and sensing. So my question was, how can I move myself, you know, my paradigm to be more open and receptive to kinship and less of
othering that happens when we label it as being not human. And you know, from our previous conversation, I think that's a slippery slope. have othered the living world and then we other others and it's, it's tragic and it harms us. And so the practice of moving to saying
Reese Brown (55:52.197)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (56:12.956)
she, he, they is a part of a personal practice to say, can I expand my own paradigm, my own thinking? How can I think in new ways and remember my connections to this living world? So why don't you take what you want to say, Beth, I'll stop with that.
Reese Brown (56:28.26)
Hmm.
Beth Norcross (56:34.698)
I think Leah speaks for both of us in that this idea of othering Martin Buber, the Jewish theologian and philosopher, but earlier in this century talked about the dangers of that subject object. And, you know, I know a lot about trees, but I don't always remember which ones are monaceous and which ones are dioecious and which ones then have both.
Reese Brown (56:59.215)
Yeah
Beth Norcross (57:01.166)
genders on the same tree, which many, many, many do, by the way, and those that are a single species, a single gendered species. And so, you know, we run the danger of being binary when we start talking about she and he. But I think for me, it personalizes it. And we both caught each other when we edited because our default, my default is a tree is an it. And I mean,
Reese Brown (57:29.168)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Norcross (57:30.754)
from way back when. so we tried, I think, again, to personalize. But it wasn't easy. And as I said, we slipped a few times. We did have a conversation with our editor about this decision. So for me, again, just inviting relationship, inviting a more personal. The trees are too important.
Reese Brown (57:51.686)
Hmm.
Beth Norcross (57:59.31)
to me and to others to be an it.
Reese Brown (58:03.471)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (58:04.128)
And I think a lot of people don't really understand that there are genders associated with trees, Beth. So I really wanted you to mention that. Thank you.
Reese Brown (58:14.734)
Yeah, no, it's really beautiful to another synchronicity there, but also the
trees that are self pollinating. don't know if that's the appropriate term for trees, but there's so many. I mean, we see lots of fish actually, but animals plants that have this beautiful capacity to transform and change themselves in order to procreate. it's really a marvel of nature. And for that to remind us of our own
both masculine, feminine, and the spectrum thereof in between that exists within us. It was a really beautiful part of my experience reading to be able to reflect on that as well. I just want to double check in about time. Are both of you good for the next until one your time, I believe?
Beth Norcross (59:20.258)
Yes, I'm fine. Me too.
Leah Rampy (59:20.288)
I'm fine. I'm fine. So yeah.
Reese Brown (59:21.862)
Okay, okay. I just wanted to make sure that the hour and a half is okay. Moving into kind of big picture here, I mentioned, you know, we have the saying, you don't want to miss the forest for the trees. And of course there's family trees. And if a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound? Why trees? They are.
Ever pervasive, you see them anywhere, even in my city, Florence, it's a walking city. You have to go out of the main city to find park and big green areas. There are still trees everywhere in any piazza that's still all cobbled stone. You'll find a little circle of dirt somewhere in the middle with a tree poking up, which just is always so striking to me. So what?
Why trees? What is it about trees and what drew both of you specifically to this being the epicenter of having this conversation? It's not lost on me that there's all sorts of spiritual inspiration to be found across the natural world and of course, marvels of science that we can find and all sorts of different things. of course not to diminish those lessons either, but why trees?
Beth Norcross (01:00:50.04)
Leah, do you want to start us or shall I?
Leah Rampy (01:00:53.47)
Well, I have a quick answer to that. I grew up loving trees and I often say because I grew up in Kansas, there were so few that I had to really love the ones that I was with, you know? So, but there was, it has been from childhood. I am fascinated by trees. I have always been one of those people. If you're driving down the road with me in the autumn or the spring, I might.
call out in the middle of a lovely story you're telling me, but wait, look, you've got to see that tree. So they speak to me and always have. for me, it's not that I don't love water. It's not that I'm not fascinated with soil and this incredible web. It's not that I don't think our clouds are amazing. Trees are just the ones that talk to me. So, Beth.
Beth Norcross (01:01:50.318)
Well, I didn't grow up in Kansas. I grew up not too far from here where we do have a lot of trees. But for me, trees as a kid were a real source of freedom. I mean, it was climbing a tree that you get really, really big and really tall and be able to see. And so it was very personal and it was very much about my desire to sort of get.
get away from the noise of a big family and so forth and just climb and reach and see. And then of course, I went to forestry school and continued my love affair with trees. And then each of us have had some pretty important experiences with the Sequoias, I think, and other really big trees that
at least humbled me and gave me a sense of my place in the world and made me feel safe. And I didn't have to be so big. You can't tell from here, but I'm a very tall person, notwithstanding my desire to get taller in the trees. Maybe that's the affinity with trees, they were tall. But also as I began leading these programs,
Reese Brown (01:02:53.254)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (01:03:02.944)
And you can't tell from here, I'm not.
Reese Brown (01:03:10.534)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (01:03:15.278)
through the Center for Spirituality in Nature, I noticed not only I was drawn to the trees, but those who were with me were drawn to the trees. There's something about trees. And as we talked before, we each have history with trees, whether we remember it consciously or not. And I watched as people responded, and we haven't talked yet too much about what the trees,
what the wisdom of trees is in regard to resilience and adaptation. But we talk about that in the book. I people who had had difficulty, mean, real difficulties in life, and watch a tree that had just grown completely sideways and then down and then finally found the light. There's inspiration.
Reese Brown (01:03:50.35)
Mm-hmm.
Leah Rampy (01:04:06.868)
Yeah.
Beth Norcross (01:04:10.478)
that tree that's holding on to dear life in the middle of a stream with its roots. People, I think, see their own stories in the stories of trees. So not only was I interested in trees from my personal experience, but just watching the experiences of others and seeing how moved they were. And then guess finally, I would just say it was
Reese Brown (01:04:22.886)
Hmm.
Beth Norcross (01:04:40.726)
It was particularly fun for me, and I think I speak for Leah here, to really dig into a part of the ecosystem and really to get to know it and help others get to know it. I've done some work with water and some other, national parks and some other things. And it was just very interesting to learn and remember.
and, as I said, dig into the science of a particular aspect that was so that we could learn more about the whole by learning about this part of it.
Reese Brown (01:05:22.323)
Mm-hmm. It's beautiful.
Leah Rampy (01:05:24.284)
And I would just add into that, Beth, you know, also what's so fascinating to me was really understanding forests and how forests really shape life on Earth. I mean, they are amazing in the water cycle, the carbon cycle, the purification of the air, the building of soil. They hold such an important place in Earth's dynamic life.
That just can't be overemphasized in terms of how much gratitude and how much care we need to have for the forests of the world. are so important to life, to life writ large. I think we think of life within the forest, and I'm speaking of the life that exudes out beyond that particular geographic place that we might call a forest because of its interconnectedness.
Reese Brown (01:06:07.974)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (01:06:23.772)
with water and sky and airflow.
Reese Brown (01:06:27.459)
Yeah.
Beth Norcross (01:06:27.64)
This harkens back to something you were asking about earlier, Reese, how we collaborated in this, but routinely over the course of writing this book together, Leah, don't forget the forest. So, yeah, no, just that her insistence, it's not too strong of a word that we.
Reese Brown (01:06:40.294)
I love that. There is... Sorry, please continue.
Beth Norcross (01:06:55.672)
think not only about trees and the forest, but their impact on the earth itself was a real contribution that Leah made to the book.
Reese Brown (01:07:01.51)
Mm.
Leah Rampy (01:07:01.652)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (01:07:06.829)
I love that. I do think there is something so beautiful about just kind of like the imagery of trees and how that really is so reflective of like the human body and trees or mediators in a very similar way to humans, right? That they have roots grounding into the ground and branches reaching up into the sky. Our feet are walking right at the divide between earth and sky and
There's the tree of life and in Jewish mysticism, like the imagery is all around the tree and just all sorts of things. The tree rings and how much trees grow in a year, transpiration, water moving against gravity. It's like there is so much we could get into here. And of course, there's only so much.
time in a day and there is a beautiful book that has already been written for readers and listeners and watchers to go down into the description and check out. That will be down there for everyone wherever you are listening or watching as will a link to the class that Beth and Leah were hosting as well as information on both of their work if you would like to dive into other things that either of them have done that
will be down there as well. In light of everything that we have chatted about, of course there is so much more we could get into, but I do want to just open space for both of you. Is there anything that you would like to return to to emphasize, anything that you would like to clarify, or anything I missed that you would be remiss if we didn't get to, or anything at all?
This is space that I hand over to both of you to, yeah, do with what you would like.
Leah Rampy (01:09:00.867)
Leah Rampy (01:09:07.572)
Beth, I have a question and I don't want to put you on the spot. So you feel free to say no, but you were so close to telling the story of the hollowed out tree and that impact that's had on more than one person. I wondered how you would feel about telling that story and if that would be okay with you and with Reese.
Reese Brown (01:09:29.19)
Absolutely, I would love it if, Beth, you're open to it.
Beth Norcross (01:09:33.504)
Sure. There's an area not too far from where I live that has these big, beautiful tulip poplars that have grown. mean, you can't see my arms. Probably four or five feet in diameter. And they're just regal and majestic and beautiful. I happened on one some years ago, and I've since taken many people back to it because it's been
Leah Rampy (01:09:47.71)
Ha ha ha!
Beth Norcross (01:10:03.054)
very meaningful and I was with a group that had experienced grief in many different forms. They'd lost relatives and animals and so it was, I co-led this with a local pastor and we went down, down, down, down, down into the valley of this forest near our house and we found ourselves in sight of this
big, beautiful tulip tree. And it looked for all the world like a giant, and I say that, I tell this story in the book, a giant ice cream scoop had scooped out the middle of it. And it was just this enormous hole that I could actually crawl into and have crawled into for solace in my own times of grief. And we looked at this tree and it had been hit by lightning.
And of course, at eye level, it looked like the tree was dead. It had to be dead. How could it have sustained this much damage? But when we looked up, we could see those tulip-shaped leaves where the tree gets its name way up high and that the tree was still living. And we talked about this with the group.
And they were so taken with it, particularly this one gentleman who had recently lost his daughter to suicide. And I watched as he touched the tree and moved with the tree. And we made the point that this tree, although damaged in a very significant way, would never be the same tree, could never be the same tree.
as the lives of these people could never be the same with the loss of their loved ones. But still it lived and still we will live. And it still gave back. I can still see it. Can you see it up there? It provided seeds to the birds, the blue jays and the cardinals that we saw up there and provided shade to some of the varmints who lived.
Beth Norcross (01:12:31.052)
And so this tree was so moving and has been to me and to countless others. And again, the stories of trees touching us so deeply.
Reese Brown (01:12:44.326)
Well, and like you said, it's still able to give back, it's also the grief that this tree has gone through, that it's lost a piece of itself is the very thing that has been able to provide comfort and solace in that, you know, recognizes like and to be witnessed and held is to be loved. And even in the depths of loneliness to find
familiarity and witnessing in the natural world around you that really is so, so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that,
Beth Norcross (01:13:26.912)
I did, while we're on that subject, I did want to say one more thing, if I could, Leah. And one of the things that we haven't chatted about, and so important, I think, with trees and with any discussion of ecology is how much the trees rely on death and how life in the forest is so dependent on what I call
Reese Brown (01:13:32.464)
Please.
Beth Norcross (01:13:54.774)
with all my scientific acuity, dead stuff. that the leaves decay and they make soil and the soil is what allows the new tree to germinate and to have life. And we talk in the book a little bit and we also found in the same walk when we found this living tree, a tree that had died, a very large
another tulip poplar that had actually ceased living. And yet there it was with saplings coming off of it, moss being formed, these so-called nurse logs that in the forest death does not have the final say. It's never the end of the story. And how important this decay
and this death and this disturbance is to life. And that gives me a lot of, dare I say, hope as we see the destruction that's going on around us all over the place today, that something will emerge from it. Barbara Mahaney says that's why it's death is at the heart of spring and that's why it takes our breath away, that we live through the dark.
Reese Brown (01:15:14.436)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (01:15:23.49)
difficult winters and things that are dormant and not living, and yet spring emerges. And I think that's just a really important thing that I learn about trees over and over again.
Reese Brown (01:15:39.846)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (01:15:41.388)
Leah, I'm gonna let you get in here now.
Leah Rampy (01:15:43.712)
There's nothing that's coming to me that I'm wanting to lift up unless there's something you're thinking of, Beth. I feel that there's just such wisdom in these young shoots and these old growth forests and we will never live long enough to learn all of those lessons.
And yet trees can be incredible companions for us. We use the term Anumkara, a soul friend. We encourage people to have a teacher tree or a soul friend who will listen to their heart and soul and longing and to ask permission to know it, to know the tree, to know our, to know him.
and to share. And so it's a beautiful practice and it is a practice and there's always something to be revealed.
Reese Brown (01:16:56.422)
That is so lovely. I cannot thank you both enough for your time and diligence and honesty and openness during this conversation. For our last question to just put hopefully a bow on our conversation that is also a marker for further expansion and exploration for listeners and for the three of us.
What is one word that comes to mind to describe how you're feeling right now?
Leah Rampy (01:17:34.026)
grateful.
Reese Brown (01:17:35.558)
Mm.
Beth Norcross (01:17:37.71)
I think the word that is popping up is nurtured.
Reese Brown (01:17:41.286)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (01:17:45.542)
Ditto and ditto. Like my great vocabulary as well and like the great whatever is coming into mind, right? Thank you both again. I am similarly feeling nurtured. This book is very nurturing and I feel very grateful for the work that both of you have done in this book through your words and the beautiful offering that it is to everybody. Again, it will be in the description box for
Leah Rampy (01:17:47.579)
Ha ha ha ha ha
Reese Brown (01:18:14.338)
everyone down below the spiritual wisdom of trees. I highly recommend it to anybody that was sparked by this conversation. Thank you both so, much.
Leah Rampy (01:18:25.884)
And Reese, we just want to say thank you to you for the work that you do, for the invitation to be with you, and for your incredibly gracious and inviting presence. This feels like a very hospitable place to be. So thank you. Deep bow of gratitude to you.
Reese Brown (01:18:29.25)
my goodness.
Reese Brown (01:18:40.977)
I'm so glad.
Beth Norcross (01:18:43.214)
And ditto.
Reese Brown (01:18:44.806)
Wonderful. Thank you both very much.
Leah Rampy (01:18:44.941)
I don't know. Yes.
Beth Norcross (01:18:48.738)
Thank you so much, Reese.