Relatives of Mother Earth and Chosen Family with Author Hilary Giovale
Reese Brown (00:00.382)
Hillary, first and foremost, thank you so much for taking the time and energy to be here and spend some time with me and have a conversation. I am really excited to be able to chat with you and to get to discuss becoming a good relative.
Hilary Giovale (00:04.287)
Yeah.
Hilary Giovale (00:23.626)
thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk with you too, Reese. just, you know, I love having these conversations and I just am so grateful for the opportunity every time they come up.
Reese Brown (00:36.098)
love that. Well and that plays right into my first question that I always like to start with which is what is one thing you're grateful for?
Hilary Giovale (00:44.766)
my gosh, I am grateful in this moment for my health. I woke up feeling good today. The sun is shining. My body feels good. And I am sitting in a beautiful, beautiful place. I live at the foot of a sacred mountain on Hopi, Havasupai, Dine, Apache, Pueblo, Wallopi, Paiute land. And
Reese Brown (00:50.883)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (01:14.248)
I'm just so grateful for this place and being in a body that feels good in a beautiful place.
Reese Brown (01:21.024)
Ugh, I love that. Well, and isn't it, it is truly such a miracle that our physical bodies get to interact with this physical world, right? In the same way that, you know, Mother Nature has the emotional spiritual side human beings do too. Like we are truly reflective in that way. And I'm always reminded of that in these moments when people call that to the forefront. So thank you for that reminder.
Second question, just to really break open our conversation, is what is your story? That is a big question. Anything you feel called to answer or discuss right now is perfect.
Hilary Giovale (02:04.95)
Yeah, I love that question. I love it so open-ended. You know, let's see, the story that's coming to me to share right now is that...
I grew up and remain in a state for most of my adult life up until my late 30s of being very uninformed and in denial about the history of this country as well as the history of my family. And
a series of events started happening in my late 30s that completely rewired me and completely changed my worldview and my understanding of reality. so that is the story that I've told in my book. And it's a story of learning to see things differently through the process of building relationship. And
Reese Brown (03:15.363)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (03:18.096)
And when I look back now and I think about, you know, the changes that have been brought about in my life in the last decade, I almost don't even recognize the person I was before. She is so, she is so different. She was so different and she had blinders on and there were so many things that she couldn't see.
Reese Brown (03:32.366)
Mm.
Hilary Giovale (03:43.861)
And there were also so many wounds that she was carrying that she didn't even know she had. And so my story has been one of taking those blinders off, learning to see things differently, and healing those wounds through very unexpected channels that are as full of grace and so much generosity. So that's my story.
Reese Brown (03:48.986)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (04:03.642)
Mm.
Reese Brown (04:11.318)
No, that's amazing. And I will also call out, if you see me looking down, I'm just taking notes for our conversation. So I am fully present with you. But what do you think?
Hilary Giovale (04:21.223)
yeah, of course.
Reese Brown (04:27.692)
initially caused you to have, I'll use your word, blinders. Where do you think blinders like this come from? Because I think a lot of us are walking around with known and unknown blinders in a lot of different ways. Why is that?
Hilary Giovale (04:43.838)
You know, I think it is part of the founding mythology of the United States that and probably other countries too. I imagine there are a lot of similarities in Canada and Australia. And but, you know, since I've always lived in the United States and my family has been here for many generations, this is where I focus. I think that
Reese Brown (04:51.034)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (05:12.808)
you know, we, our country was born out of a process of settler colonialism. And there is something about settler colonialism that blinds and numbs and shuts down settlers. It tends to shut us down and keep us in the dark a little bit about the history that has led our people to this place that has
had our families living here for generations and going about our business and thinking that there's nothing unusual about that business for many generations. So it's part of, it's kind of like the water that we've all been swimming in for many generations. It's the air that we've been breathing. And it wasn't until I started building relationships with other communities
Reese Brown (05:57.997)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (06:10.558)
with other people who are not white settlers, including indigenous peoples and African American peoples and other communities of color that I realized I had these blinders on that I couldn't see. I could not see them until I started building those relationships and making friends with people. And suddenly I realized that they had a whole other story than what I have.
Reese Brown (06:27.14)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (06:39.882)
than the stories I was brought up with and acculturated into. And it was a shock to me to realize that there was this whole other narrative that I had really never heard. And in part, the reason I had never heard that is because
Reese Brown (06:53.818)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (07:01.044)
I didn't try to, I didn't try to hear that. I didn't seek out those sources. I didn't educate myself about those histories. And that's part of the mythology is that we tend not to do that. We tend to just accept that this is a land of freedom for all. This is a land of liberty. And many of us have never questioned that.
Reese Brown (07:15.064)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (07:28.802)
Yeah. Where do you think...
So I think on one hand, there is absolutely this sort of...
We are all, we all fall prey to our environment, right? And you don't know what you don't know. And I do think at a certain point, especially when you're young and depending on your family of origin and how you're raised, it would make sense that these questions have never been raised for a lot of people. But I also believe that at a certain point, we are responsible for our own ignorance. And it does become our responsibility and duty to make right on all of these things that you're.
bringing up or at least attempt to, right?
Reese Brown (08:15.754)
What was the tipping point that allowed you to see the path towards seeking out these stories?
Hilary Giovale (08:25.622)
Yeah, you raise a really good point. We are responsible. I really believe that. We are responsible for re-educating ourselves because most of us were never taught what happened in the founding realities with this country. That's part of the design that we were not taught these things in school. And we are responsible to
Reese Brown (08:36.506)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (08:53.704)
read the books, watch the films, have the conversations, because if we don't take those steps, then we're just perpetuating the cycle. And for me, you know, my own path into this work, which is just one of many, many possible paths, there are many, many ways to open these doors. The way that it happened for me was through friendship.
Reese Brown (09:21.306)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (09:21.814)
It was through friendship with a handful of women of color and Indigenous women who had the tremendous patience and generosity to help me see things. And because we were friends and we were sitting together and having tea and going for walks and working together in some cases, I received this
view this little entry into their world, into their experiences, into learning what their families have been through, into hearing their perspectives. And because I loved them like sisters, I could no longer look away. It was that relationship and that love that I have for them and that they have for me too that enabled me to
Reese Brown (10:05.594)
Mm.
Reese Brown (10:13.785)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (10:17.721)
Yeah.
Hilary Giovale (10:21.524)
to begin seeing things differently.
Reese Brown (10:24.438)
Mm, I love that. I think that it can be really easy to boil down a lot of things to love, but the act of love is really hard. It asks a lot of us. And when we actually do confront what love asks us to do,
that there is work there. And I think that that is a really beautiful point. And I think takes me to one of my first questions about the book, which is usually a question I ask a lot of authors, because I'm just fascinated with titles in general, and how people come up with titles, because of course, there's the marketing aspect, but also how do you boil down this beautiful work into a phrase or a few words. And I think
I have a few questions about the title, but I'll start with why the word relative? And you've discussed the word relationship a few times. And of course, a relative is a type of relationship, but what does relationship mean to you? And how does the word relative play into that?
Hilary Giovale (11:38.812)
Yeah, that's a great question. That word is one that I've heard repeated over and over in Indigenous families and community spaces. And I wouldn't have thought to use that title, but one of my very early readers was a Black woman who got on the phone with me after she read my draft and she said, this book is about becoming a good relative.
Reese Brown (11:51.459)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (12:08.296)
And I think that's the title. And so I immediately was like, my gosh, you're right. That is what this book is about. And I respect you and your opinion so much that I am going to use that. And then I later on ran that title by different readers, different people, and they all concurred.
Reese Brown (12:10.553)
you
Hilary Giovale (12:33.814)
And that's a really important aspect of writing this book is that it's always been done through a process of community and seeking feedback, seeking accountability, you know, just asking people's opinions and asking for help, refining my thinking and what am I saying and how am I saying it and is it landing well or not? And so I'm so grateful because
Reese Brown (12:44.378)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (13:03.574)
I can't take credit for that title and that's how it should be. That word, that phrase, becoming a good relative or the phrase we are all related is a cultural phrase that's part of many indigenous cultures. That is a concept that runs throughout many cultures and it's a beautiful concept. And it's one that I really try to...
Reese Brown (13:07.417)
Huh.
Reese Brown (13:15.546)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (13:31.762)
live into and put into action all the time. Because, you know, if you think about it, being like the word ally gets thrown around a lot right now, lately. To me, becoming a relative is different than becoming an ally. Because if you're if you're striving to be an ally, you're still a little bit you don't have all your
all your cards in. You're a little bit on the outside still. You're not fully invested.
Reese Brown (14:09.39)
Yeah, well, and it creates a certain hierarchy as well within that very
like name of roles, of determining roles.
Hilary Giovale (14:24.074)
Right, right. It's like, yeah, exactly. There's a hierarchy and there's still a division embedded in that. And when I think about becoming a relative, what does that mean? That means making sure everybody has enough to eat and that they've got a blanket on when it's cold and that the elders have an arm to lean on when they need to walk to their chair.
Reese Brown (14:31.226)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (14:53.498)
and that people are cared for like family. And that's a more profound kind of relationship to try to lean into for me. Yeah. And did that answer your question? Was there a second part?
Reese Brown (14:58.01)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (15:06.126)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (15:13.082)
Absolutely. honestly don't remember, but I'm... This was perfect. Questions are... I'm not looking for the exact answer. I'm looking for everything that you just gave me. So thank you. This is... please. Yes.
Hilary Giovale (15:16.628)
I don't either.
Hilary Giovale (15:29.438)
Yeah. but I know there's one thing I can tell you too about the subtitle.
Originally, the book did not have a subtitle on it. And I was very fortunate to work with another Black woman who served as my final, final sensitivity reader. And she's a wonderful person. She was incredibly generous to come in at the last minute on a short timeline and read the entire manuscript. And
you know, bounced ideas around with me and told me how it was landing with her. And we had many conversations about it. And finally, when she had finished her review and I had made all the changes that she had requested, she said to me, we need a subtitle on this book because we need to be clear who it is for. And so we began bouncing ideas around. I bounced it around with some other people as well. And we came up with a subtitle.
calling white settlers toward truth, healing and repair. And that's important because this work is ours to do, you know? whiteness, when whiteness and settlers are centered sometimes, that can feel unsafe for people, that can feel...
Reese Brown (16:34.521)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (16:57.703)
not relevant for all communities all the time, but it is relevant for those of us who are white settlers. And we do have our own work to do and that is what this book is for. It's to help us. Yeah.
Reese Brown (17:08.518)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really respect that a lot because I do think, I mean, even in this conversation, one of the very first things that popped into my mind, which I will call out right now, we are two white women having a conversation about this, right? And that is centering the white settler perspective in this conversation right now. Not to say that that's not a valuable conversation to be having, but...
Hilary Giovale (17:25.739)
Right.
Reese Brown (17:38.788)
to emphasize who it is for and who this work, who is being called to this work, I think is very instrumental. And even in you discussing the patience and grace and generosity of everyone that has helped you, because it absolutely should not be the burden of oppressed groups to educate, right? And I really appreciate the...
honesty that you have approached that with. I think that's really important. And one thing that's coming up for me here as well within this conversation of relative is the notion of chosen family. And I have always been very passionate about the idea that all family is chosen, even blood family that we choose to continue to engage with as family that is still an active choice on our parts.
Talk to me about your opinion on chosen family. because relative is associated with the family system. What comes up for you when I use that phrase?
Hilary Giovale (18:47.046)
Yeah, I love that. I love the idea that all family is chosen family. That's really true. Yeah. And, you know, I think what comes up for me is that part of my journey was a big part of it was learning that I had ancestors who came to the United States, even before it was the United States in 1739.
began receiving land grants and enslaving people. And there was a period of time where I was really so disgusted and so angry with my ancestors who had done those things that I almost wanted to reject them as family. There was a period of time where I wanted to reject my own family and instead
Reese Brown (19:35.93)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (19:43.968)
cling to my other chosen family, which were different people, different communities, indigenous communities and communities of color. That was a phase of my journey. But also after I went through that phase, I decided to forgive my ancestors and re-choose my family. I have chosen my ancestors as well.
and my own, my living family as well, because I belong to them and I love them. And we are working together to heal this legacy. Whether they are people who are on the other side and who are ancestors now, or whether they are here with us presently, I choose them. I choose my people as well. And I also choose
Reese Brown (20:26.17)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (20:45.148)
all kinds of other people and communities as my family as well. Like, you know, I choose, I choose, you know, black communities in Mississippi who are living in poverty as my chosen family, because they are living out the legacy of my ancestors who enslaved people in Mississippi.
And so even though I might not be in direct relationship with them, I consider them my family and I'm responsible to them. I'm accountable to contributing to their well-being. So it's like that. So if you look at it that way, it's like, I have a lot of family. they're all over the place. Yeah.
Reese Brown (21:26.701)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (21:34.468)
Yeah, yeah.
Reese Brown (21:39.458)
Hmm. No, I think that that's very true. And truly extending this concept outward, shouldn't we be treating all as though they are family, right? And I think that that is the natural next step in this kind of continuation. To follow up on this kind of exploration of the title, I think the word becoming is also so
beautifully intentional too. The way the book really is set up in that it is not a finished story, it is an ongoing process that is clear is still continuing. And I believe very deeply that being is becoming in the sense that if we want to be a good relative, we have to constantly be becoming a better relative.
and that work is never done. So you did share the story of how this one reader generously gifted you the title. Thoughts on the word becoming as for specific usage in this way.
Hilary Giovale (22:53.832)
Yeah, you just absolutely called it. I mean, that's it. It's a constant process. And even though the book is published now, and people are reading it now, I'm still becoming a good relative. I will be becoming one for the rest of my life. That's my, that is my prayer that I will continue becoming a good relative and that it will never be finished.
Reese Brown (23:17.593)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (23:23.434)
because it's about continually showing up, continually listening and discerning and thinking and questioning and trying and making mistakes and trying again. And it's a constant process. Yeah.
Reese Brown (23:41.942)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
100%. What about the process called you to write a book as opposed to there's many ways that I think we can practice becoming a good relative. Why this way?
Hilary Giovale (24:03.304)
Yeah, well, you know, there's a there's a foreword in the book that's written by a friend of mine named Yéyé Luisa Tiche. And I have so much respect for her. She's an African American elder and a high priestess of the Ifa tradition of West Africa. And Yéyé Tiche and I
had a very interesting encounter. This was in 2016. I started having these nudges that were coming to me while I was walking in the woods near my home. And I was hearing these almost like whispers about a book that I was supposed to write. And I could tell what the content of the book was about. And it was terrifying. It was terrifying prospect.
Reese Brown (24:59.694)
Ahem.
Hilary Giovale (25:00.278)
write such a book. And I asked, I had a series of events happen around my with my family and in my home that were very perplexing. And so I asked Yéyétiche if she would help me with some spiritual guidance. She did a De Lagoon reading for me, which is part of her tradition. And before I said anything, she said, the ancestors are whispering in my ear about a book that she's written.
And of course I hadn't written a book, but I had been hearing whispers like that too. And so I said to her, I haven't written a book yet. And she said, the ancestors are telling me that the book is already written and you need to get out of the way. And we began talking about it. I told her, was very, I had a lot of fear, a lot of trepidation about doing such a thing.
Reese Brown (25:47.642)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (25:56.746)
I didn't feel that I had the skills or the capacity to write a book like that. And she listened to me very patiently. And then she gave me a writing prompt and a deadline. And she said, no, you need to get started because they are telling me that it's happening. And so that is how it came about. Until that time, I never really aspired to be a writer or be an author. But I found that
the material I was working with was so, so heavy, so difficult to process and deal with that I had to write. I had to write as part of my healing process. And, know, there have been, I don't even know how many drafts, hundreds, hundreds of drafts because...
Reese Brown (26:41.028)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (26:51.284)
I've had to work through so much of my own baggage to get it to a place where it was something that other people could read. You know?
Reese Brown (26:58.374)
Hmm. Yeah. Yep. As a writer myself, yes. Absolutely. And not even in the, least, please do not let me put words in your mouth, but the way I'm hearing you is not even in the, there's certain things I don't want to talk about that are personal, but in the, how do I make this not a diary entry that is self-serving and
Hilary Giovale (27:06.549)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (27:27.702)
something that is actually for public consumption in a productive and useful way. Yeah, yeah. I love that you, your first thought in this way was to go for spiritual guidance. I tend to be very similar in that way. And if I'm hearing whispers or glimmers or receiving downloads, it's like, okay,
Hilary Giovale (27:27.764)
Right.
Hilary Giovale (27:36.158)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah.
Reese Brown (27:57.122)
What is this? What's going on? What can I do to tap into this? What? Talk to me about spirit and how that has played a part in your journey.
Hilary Giovale (28:11.658)
yeah, it's played such a big role. For most of my adult life, I wasn't really sure where I was going with that. I had been brought up in evangelical churches as a child and I had left that behind as a teenager and I didn't really have a lot of direction. And in my late thirties, I began
building relationships with some of the indigenous communities and peoples around me. And in their cultures and their ways, I started to see something that was very, very resonant with me. And this is the case, I think, for a lot of white settlers. And this is part of what often leads us into cultural appropriation because we...
Reese Brown (29:04.206)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (29:06.856)
we see something that we're And there's a reason that we're missing that. I believe that all people had those connections to the sacred, to the land, to the water, to the spirits of the land at one time. And that was purposely taken away from our ancestors in Europe over centuries.
And so many of us here who are settlers now, we feel that gap in ourselves and we're looking, we're seeking, right? And so a lot of us tend to feel an affinity toward indigenous cultures, indigenous practices, indigenous ceremonies. And that was kind of the opening point for me was awakening to...
Reese Brown (29:43.738)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (30:04.67)
a spiritual dimension of life that is connected to the earth, connected to the living animate being of the elements around us, of the land herself, of fire, of water. that became, those elements of spirituality became very important for me through my journey.
Reese Brown (30:08.836)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (30:34.484)
They really helped building relationships with those things really helped give me the capacity to do this work that's very difficult. I wouldn't have been able to do it and I continue to do it. still, I tend an ancestor altar every day that includes, know, sacred fire, sacred water. I make offerings to the land every day and...
Reese Brown (30:42.615)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (31:02.324)
Those kind of practices for me are really what enabled me to continue with this.
Reese Brown (31:09.884)
Wow. No, that's extremely powerful. If you don't mind me asking, what was it when you were a teenager that first started your deconstruction from Protestant evangelical religion? Because I tend to find that in my experience,
talking to people with similar passions and paths to you, many of us have a deconstruction story around that time. I would love to hear more about that for you.
Hilary Giovale (31:50.024)
Yeah, sure. Yeah, for me, I think I didn't have the words for it at the time. But when I look back in hindsight, I realize I was just so not resonating with the patriarchal aspects of religion, know, of the way that even that churches are constructed with
Reese Brown (32:09.114)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (32:18.044)
some authority figure up in front who's higher than everyone else, who's talking at everyone else. Even that comes from a blueprint that is very old and for me is very damaging too. It comes from this idea that a particular person can be ordained to speak as some kind of
Reese Brown (32:35.695)
Mm.
Hilary Giovale (32:46.77)
authority figure when we all have that within us. We all have the ability to connect to the sacred, to connect to spirit. really, for me, in spiritual spaces, we should be sitting in circles. We should all be on the same level and everyone should have the opportunity to speak and participate equally. Even just the way that physical spaces are constructed tells a lot.
Reese Brown (32:57.358)
Yeah.
Hilary Giovale (33:16.702)
You know, so, yeah, that's what I was reacting to was a lot of the the patriarchal history of religion and and also the way that religion has been for centuries has been co-opted by political structures and and used to wield tremendous power over people and and create tremendous harm.
Reese Brown (33:17.378)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (33:27.161)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (33:45.366)
Mm hmm. 100 % and vice versa in that religions wield political structures and political structures yield religions, right? Like it goes both ways to further entrench this hierarchy that you're talking about. When you first started engaging with this other dimension of spirituality, in addition to the
lack of hierarchy and perhaps more equitable way of approaching spirit. What, again, I'll use your language, felt more resonant.
Hilary Giovale (34:29.652)
I think what felt really resonant was the fact, well, first of all, let me back up a little bit. I had received, let's see, how old was I? I must've been in my early 30s. I graduated with a master's degree.
in sustainability. And so I had received this wonderful interdisciplinary education that was all about sustainability. And in the course of getting that degree, I really, you know, we took these deep dives into the environmental crises that are happening. And it's deeply frightening. And now it's even more scary than it was then in the early 2000s, you know. And so
Reese Brown (35:17.204)
Yes.
Hilary Giovale (35:22.588)
I was a mother of young children. I was seeing these crises and I was just completely at a loss. Like, what are we gonna do about this? How is humanity gonna survive through these crises that we've created for ourselves? And will my children have clean air to breathe? And just deep concern over the wellbeing and the health of our planet.
Reese Brown (35:44.686)
Mmm.
Hilary Giovale (35:50.932)
That was the state I was in when I started considering and looking at and sometimes being invited into these other ways of practicing spirituality. And what I saw was that those ways were connected to the earth. They saw the earth as our mother, as our, you know, our sacred, it was our sacred responsibility to take good care of her.
Reese Brown (36:09.242)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (36:20.948)
to be good relatives to her and to love her as our mothers all deserve to be loved, to be in reciprocity with her and to give back to her. Those are some the concepts that were introduced to me. And another important concept was that water is life. The first person who taught me that was a Tehuwa elder named Kathy Sanchez who
Reese Brown (36:23.192)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (36:43.118)
Mm.
Hilary Giovale (36:50.026)
works with Tehwa Women United and she gave me permission to share my understanding of what I learned from her. And that was a very profound teaching to understand that water is not a thing that comes out of the tap. You know, even though that's how I had perceived it my whole life up until that point, water is a sacred being. Water is life. Without water, everything dies. So
Reese Brown (37:08.131)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (37:14.028)
Mm.
Reese Brown (37:17.753)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (37:21.66)
It was that concern for our planet and our ability to continue as people and the ability of all the species on this planet to continue that led me into understanding spirituality differently.
Reese Brown (37:29.466)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (37:38.87)
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's... I'm fascinated by entry points into this work as well, because I think for me, feminism was a very accessible entree into being able to try and become a good relative, right? In doing the work of...
trying to become a good relative. And I think that these small ways in which we see
Reese Brown (38:16.46)
our loved ones hurting, becoming hurt, especially when it comes to children in the future. When we get into that mindset, I think it becomes very clear how to enact, I mean, basic golden rule, right? Treat mother earth the way we would want to be treated. Treat others the way we would want to be treated. So that's really, just thank you for sharing that. That's so fascinating.
In terms of continuing to really do this work, you mentioned that you have some rituals and practices that you do every day to stay really connected. What are some other things that you do to continue the process of becoming a good relative? And do you have any recommendations for listeners that maybe
have never thought about these concepts before and want to start this process, or are really passionate about becoming a good relative, but are struggling with finding practices that feel really resonant and applicable.
Hilary Giovale (39:27.208)
Yeah, there are two things that I would recommend. And on the surface, it looks a little bit like maybe they're not connected, but they are deeply connected. So the first thing is I mentioned my ancestor altar. That's an important place for me. anyone practicing reverence and reciprocity with ancestors is
is a through line that runs throughout many cultures in the world. And I feel that that's something that we white settlers can do very safely without being appropriative of other cultures. We can keep it very simple with, you know, a candle, a bowl of water, maybe some herbs from our garden, maybe a plate of food that we make from scratch. You know, very simple. can be
Reese Brown (39:59.47)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (40:25.078)
And what do you do once you have that altar set up? This is the piece that may be a little bit, you know, counterintuitive for people, but for me, it has been really important and that is to learn to listen differently. So you can, for example, keep a journal by your bed and write down all of your dreams.
Reese Brown (40:44.345)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (40:51.752)
every morning or some people prefer using a voice recorder. If they record their dreams when they wake up in the morning or even in the middle of the night. Learning to listen to intuition. Learning to look for signs in the natural world that corroborate what you're feeling or what your dream showed you.
Reese Brown (40:56.473)
Mm.
Reese Brown (41:17.551)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (41:18.962)
learning to really tap into that inner knowing is very, very important in this work. Because if we try to approach it with a harsh or linear or analytical mind only, then we're just going to be replicating the patterns of white supremacy. And so we have to learn how to
Reese Brown (41:41.839)
Mmm.
Hilary Giovale (41:47.498)
tap into that part of ourselves that's much more connected, much older, much wiser than what our minds can manufacture. And that's what I did.
Reese Brown (41:55.35)
Hmm. Hmm. I, I, yes, I really want to pause on what it is that you just said. There's goosebumps all over my body. If we approach this with an analytical mind, we are repeating the patterns of white supremacy.
Reese Brown (42:20.239)
Like.
That really hit me as someone trying my best to practice this myself and recognizing that when I do receive whispers, glimmers, signs in the natural world, that analytical mind is the first thing to turn on and say.
Why? Why would that be a sign for you? Why would that be a message? Why are you, right? The critique and judgment. And it is also in those moments that we must practice the becoming of a good relative. I apologize. I feel as though I just totally cut you off, but I think that that is, that was so profound for me personally. And I hope it is for listeners as well.
Hilary Giovale (43:02.599)
That was a fake!
Hilary Giovale (43:11.67)
Yeah. Well, I want to mention a book that was so helpful for me. It's called Witches and Pagans and it's by an independent feminist historian named Max Dashu. And when I read that book, it just landed so many things for me because I realized that the pattern of
Reese Brown (43:13.146)
Truly, truly.
Hilary Giovale (43:42.566)
delegitimizing our dreams, our intuition, our ability to be in relationship with the land and the water, our ability to weave cures and blessings and spells that take care of our families and our communities. All of that has been impeded by this very deliberate assault that went on for hundreds and hundreds of years throughout Europe. And
Reese Brown (44:10.831)
Yeah.
Hilary Giovale (44:12.532)
When I read that book, I mean, it just landed on me like a ton of bricks. It was like, there's a reason why we've all been conditioned to question it when we receive guidance or when we receive a dream or intuition that is pointing us in a direction. There's a reason, you know?
Reese Brown (44:33.752)
Yeah. Yeah. What one thing that's coming up for me right now and in what you're saying with like, especially throughout Europe, but also the United States and largely Western culture that is entrenched in settler colonialism, but also capitalism is how much finances have come into play in religious systems, right? And I, last year had
privilege of visiting Vatican City and it is absolutely stunning, an extremely spiritual experience. The opulence is overwhelming in that
It reminded me so starkly of the disconnect between people who are quote unquote trying to live in the footsteps of Jesus, but also have such wealth that could be disseminated and spread and used to help and uplift and
Reese Brown (45:47.426)
It makes so much intuitive sense to me that of course these inner messages, messages from ancestors, messages from mother nature, from the earth, from our inner connectedness would be called into question because then there would be no need for this hierarchy. There would be no need for this power. There would be no need to pay money to these systems and structures. Yeah, I don't think there's a question in there.
Hilary Giovale (46:15.636)
Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's you're absolutely right. You're right. Yeah. And that all that gold is, you know, was stolen from these lands that were harmed by the European imperialism. It's so sad to me.
Reese Brown (46:17.102)
But...
Reese Brown (46:22.756)
Wow, wow, wow.
Reese Brown (46:32.494)
Right? Well, and how much of that spiritual connection that I felt entering into that space is truly the natural materials that are being used here, right? That hold the energy of that sacred land, of those sacred traditions that has been appropriated for new means and purposes.
Hilary Giovale (47:01.376)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (47:01.71)
That is really powerful. Continuing, please.
Hilary Giovale (47:04.2)
Yeah, I think, you know, and I can I add something to that too, because I really think as part of my journey, I've I've studied and read about the doctrine of discovery a little bit, which originated with the Catholic Church. And, you know, the Pope, Pope Francis has taken some steps in recent years to to apologize and to he he did, you know, denounce the doctrine of discovery.
Reese Brown (47:10.458)
Please, please, please.
Reese Brown (47:25.422)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (47:34.314)
But until, and this is the second step I wanted to offer, so it kind of leads into that, until there are reparations made, until land is returned, until resources are returned, we aren't there yet. We're not done. These institutions that have wrought this colonial damage all over the world need to be accountable for what they have done.
Reese Brown (47:52.278)
Yeah.
Hilary Giovale (48:03.886)
And you know, it's easy for me to sit here and say that I don't have any leverage with Pope Francis or the Catholic Church. But on the other hand, there are steps that we as individuals can take too. And that is to create personal reparations plans. While we're waiting for our governments and our institutions to get their acts together, we can we can do it.
We, every single person has it within their power to look at their situation, listen to their intuitive guidance and begin a process of making personal reparations. And there's a guide that I have written up that I will share with you in the show notes that anyone can use. It's just, you know, a series of steps and guidance that
Reese Brown (48:44.57)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (48:51.162)
Please.
Hilary Giovale (49:00.958)
I found helpful in working with people, but it can be done any way. If you have other ways of approaching it, that's great too. And I just think it's really important for us to begin this conversation about reparations and for each of us to commit to taking steps.
Reese Brown (49:18.573)
Hmm
I, please, I would love to read this write-up booklet that you have created, and we will absolutely include it in the show notes. So wherever you are listening or watching the podcast, head down below to look into it for yourself. What are some of the steps that personal reparations entails? Because this, in full honesty and transparency, is a new concept for me. Of course, I've heard of
larger scale reparations in terms of what governments and societies can do to try and make right and do better. But it does feel at times a little hopeless as a singular individual that my voice and my vote and how I vote with my dollar and my eyeballs is powerful and is important.
but can only do so much. So talk to me about this personal level.
Hilary Giovale (50:26.834)
Yeah, you know, I think this is one of the hangups and the myths that gets imposed on us as white settlers because I had to navigate this myth myself. the myth of anything that I can do will never be good enough. The myth of perfectionism. Like if I can't get it perfectly right, then there's no point in doing it at all. I have had to...
Reese Brown (50:37.156)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (50:46.234)
Mmm.
Hilary Giovale (50:54.558)
traverse that landscape in my mind many, many times and push through to the other side. I remember one time a mentor of mine sent me a postcard that said, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And that is what we're going for with personal reparations plans. We can't fix it. We cannot fix the centuries of genocide and slavery and
land dispossession, and etc. All the things that have happened through colonization. We cannot fix that, but what we can do is try to reduce the harm that is continuing today. And that's what personal reparations plans are all about. They're about trying to reduce the harm. And every single one of us has access into that. So for example, you know, I facilitate groups who work together for
Reese Brown (51:33.018)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (51:40.442)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (51:51.794)
eight months at a time and we work on personal reparations plans. And some of the steps that I've seen people incorporate are things like, you know, hosting a cooking workshop with a reparations-based menu and then giving the proceeds from that workshop back to a Black-owned farm that's in the community. Or,
Reese Brown (52:10.362)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (52:18.558)
you know, gathering in the garden of an Indigenous elder and doing work in her garden to help weed her garden and turn her compost pile and then cooking a meal that everyone shares together at the end. Some people, instead of giving, you know, birthday presents, Christmas presents to our white friends and family, some people are saying, I made a contribution to this BIPOC-led organization in your honor.
for your birthday, because the truth is we don't really need any more presents probably. What we need is to support our relatives, right? And so that can be a beautiful way to open conversations with friends and family. Because for me, the goal of personal reparations plans is kind of twofold. One is for us to get into action and taking steps like that.
Reese Brown (52:57.944)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (53:15.107)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (53:16.372)
But the second objective is we need to be having these conversations with each other, with our own communities, our own families. We need to be normalizing and co-creating a culture of reparations with each other.
Reese Brown (53:35.224)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and the accountability that I would imagine that that creates as well when you start having these discussions and you're holding yourself accountable by creating these groups and being there and stating out loud that this is a priority for me, but of course the other people in your life as well. What are some ways that
you have come up against difficulties and having these conversations with other people in your life and
I suppose recommendations for other people that are endeavoring to do this work as white settlers trying to.
make reparations and do better and reduce harm, but are really wanting to have these conversations with people who don't understand or aren't there yet.
Hilary Giovale (54:37.822)
Right. Yeah, I mean, it is so difficult because it's triggering for us. We as a people, meaning, you know, Euro-descended settlers, white people, we in general have not developed the muscle of having this conversation. And part of it is because
our whole way of being is to not talk about it. And so we don't practice, we don't practice very much. And so it's hard, it's hard. I mean, it triggers people, it can feel threatening to people. And I feel so grateful that I've had so much help with my book because I worked with one editor a couple of years ago when I already had
Reese Brown (55:08.952)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (55:20.728)
Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale (55:33.27)
what I thought was a pretty complete manuscript, but she came in and started working with me. And she said to me, know, these parts of the book where you're up on your high horse and lecturing people don't work. And I was like, you're right. They don't work. And so that was so helpful because what she helped me understand was what does work.
Reese Brown (55:49.487)
Whoa.
Hilary Giovale (56:03.294)
And what is compelling is storytelling. And that's why in the groups I co-facilitate, we spend a lot of our time focusing on storytelling because, you know, nobody needs to be shamed or lectured or told that they're doing something wrong. That doesn't work. But what we do need to do is witness each other and sit together and hear each other's stories.
Reese Brown (56:07.802)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (56:31.316)
because stories build empathy and connection and they humanize us with each other. And so, you know, I've made mistakes. I've alienated people by getting on a soapbox. And I really try not to do that anymore. And to really come from more of a place of empathy and connection and patience and compassion, you know?
Reese Brown (56:58.874)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (56:59.95)
and non-judgment. I mean, we're all trying our best and, you know, as you go down this path and as you're in this work for a while, you can start to see when people are at earlier phases than you. And that's the time to reach out and hold someone's hand and offer to walk beside them and not shame them.
Reese Brown (57:20.93)
Hmm. Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (57:25.758)
Because that again is another product of white supremacy, that shaming, you know?
Reese Brown (57:32.494)
Wow. Yeah. Yes.
I am so deeply enjoying this conversation, but I of course want to be mindful and respectful of your time. So as we approach the end of our time together, I have a few more questions. One, in light of our conversation and everything we have discussed or not discussed, is there anything you would like to return to, re-emphasize, clarify, or add in that we haven't had a chance to touch on yet?
Hilary Giovale (58:13.054)
I think I would like to just share with people that one of the aspects of my book that's very important to me is that I don't receive income from this work. Any income that comes to me from book sales, I'm returning to the Decolonizing Wealth Project and Jubilee Justice, and I can share those links as well. And...
Reese Brown (58:38.874)
Please do, I will include them in the show notes.
Hilary Giovale (58:41.278)
You know, that's important to me because...
Hilary Giovale (58:47.91)
This this work is so sacred to me that I can't make a living off of it. Do you know what I mean? It's it's in order to keep it clean and to keep it grounded and real. I can't profit. And so I want you know, I have I have chosen those two organizations for very
Reese Brown (59:10.81)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (59:17.726)
specific reasons because of where they're located, who runs them, and the way that those origin stories of those organizations, which are both Black and Indigenous led organizations, the way that those origin stories interweave with my own family history is very important. And so that is part of my personal reparations plan is to share my own story as an act of service and return
the proceeds to them because the privilege that I have that I'm walking around with and benefiting from every day of my life was derived from acts of theft. And so it's important for me to return what was stolen. you know, I just honor and respect the work of those two organizations so much. And I invite
Reese Brown (59:50.745)
Mm.
Reese Brown (01:00:06.81)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (01:00:17.726)
listeners to check them out and you know consider supporting them as well or others other other organizations that are in your community or that are being run by people, you know that are doing meaningful work to decolonize and to take care of people and take care of the land so That's probably what I would add
Reese Brown (01:00:41.818)
Thank you very much for sharing that. Yes, all of those links for listeners and watchers will be in the description down below wherever you are. And really great way to support this work is to go buy the book. The proceeds are going to go to these wonderful organizations. And the reading was extremely powerful for me in my own work in trying to become a good relative.
There will always be more to go and more to do, but it was truly such an honor to be able to engage with your words and in this conversation. So thank you. And if you are interested in purchasing the book, all of that information will be available down in the description as well.
Hilary Giovale (01:01:32.48)
Thank you so much, Reese.
Reese Brown (01:01:34.304)
Absolutely. One final question that I always use to just put a little button on the end of the episode. What is one word to describe how you feel right now?
Hilary Giovale (01:01:48.078)
I feel grateful. Yeah, I'm grateful.
for all the abundance that surrounds us and that this moment in history has come when we can begin unpacking these things too. It wasn't always so, and we are here now. We have the capacity to begin this together and I'm just really grateful and I'm grateful for you too. And thank you so much for your wonderful questions and your deep listening and.
Reese Brown (01:02:06.97)
Hmm.
Hilary Giovale (01:02:24.786)
Yeah, making this conversation possible.
Reese Brown (01:02:28.026)
Absolutely, it was my utmost pleasure to be able to read your words and have this conversation. Thank you so much.