Ouroboros: Meaning is a Part of the Human Experience with Nicole Adams

hi Nicole hi Reesey how are you doing today I'm doing well today's a good day cuz I really don't have much planned nice yeah perfect time for us to sit down and talk like we never do ever I know um that never happens never okay so first thing thank you for being the first return guest on making meaning I'm excited to be here I am so excited I'm a fan thank you our first guest that we ever had was the wonderful Nicole Adams and now repeat guest you're the first one um and it's been about 2 years which is it doesn't feel like two years it doesn't I remember I was asking you before we sat down like when when actually was that and we were like like doing the math the meme with the math like no that's actually what I'm thinking about yeah but it's um like we hadn't been living in this house very long no like we were pretty fresh out of college like hadn't been settled it was a totally different time it feels like yeah really and truly so we I I want to follow up on that but before we dive into it tell me one thing you're grateful for right now um I think but like the sunlight in this room oh yeah and the fact that I'm coming up on my oneyear anniversary with this guy and it actually had two plants in it my birds of paradise and so there's another pot over there with my second one and the fact that I've kept them alive is also what I'm grateful for I love that well also it's so funny that you mentioned that because in the first episode one thing that I think was like a huge thing that I still think about for me was you talking about how much light inspires you and is important to you you're right I guess I'm kind of weird when it comes to that I don't think it's weird I think it's lovely but like when you go on walks and you like watch the light how it comes in through the trees and so the fact that that's still like a part of who you are I think is really cool yeah I find myself working in this room a lot I think a lot of the time just because of the sunlight yeah um it just feels nice giant truck just went by um no it does feel nice and it's like the room in our house that gets the most natural sunlight which is really nice yeah it's funny to live in a house with so many windows but it I've never thought about it they have to be facing the right way yeah and even like the courtyard only gets light at a certain time of day and all of our other windows like we're we're in this weird spot where we're actually kind of blocked from a lot of sun it's weird weird like I wouldn't have thought that but that's I guess why I'm grateful for this room yeah it's kind of nice that's lovely yeah so talking about it being about 2 years since we've last recorded and we've lived together through that time and we were like fresh out of college and now we're not we're like young Professionals in well I don't know how professional professional is a loose term professional could mean a lot of things um yeah but I I think on the outside people would consider us young professionals like that's the phase of life we're in what have those two years been like for you I guess just generally however you react that question but also transitioning from being a student in school into being a part of the Working World and like living on your own and like kind of doing the adulting thing where to begin it's funny I the first thing that I immediately think of is like it's been about two years mhm whatever I say now two years from now I'm going to be like ah she didn't even know yeah true so that's like the first thing that I think about but with that being said like it's this huge like growth spt time of life and I do feel a lot more settled in it and so I guess that's a good thing yeah but as far as like what's changed a lot um I mean even this house has changed looking around like thinking about you know our roommates have changed our Decor has changed and I feel like it's kind of matured with us and it's kind of like the physical representation of that of that growth yeah but outside of the house I mean to think about my work life I don't even think I was dating Eli at the time no which is strange no that was I mean you you didn't you if we're going from our first interview you wouldn't have met Eli for like another eight months that's crazy yeah yeah cuz that feels like it's been forever now but it obviously hasn't been um I mean a totally different place at work um my food Instagram has just gone off to die I need to bring it back that's disappointing I've let them down youve let all of the Nicole's eats fans down as a fan of I'm still taking photos and doing nothing with them I I you know what as a fan of Nicole's eats I would love to see it come back however I think that that is such a like you never wanted that to be like a business or a company and it's like if it brings you Joy great keep doing it I would love to see it but if not know it's f it does but then sometimes the actual posting and making sure I have the right restaurant or whatever gets kind of annoying but I think I just need to like go back to the basics post the picture and let it be yeah cuz at the end of the day that is what people want to see right is just your food it's Nicole's eats not Nicole's plugs but now there's this thing called Tik Tock oh my God Tik Tok like wasn't a thing when we first I honestly don't know like was it not a thing then it it obious but not what it is now right and cuz I wasn't posting on Tik Tok I I hadn't even posted like a fun Tik Tok myself I was that was one of those things where I was just so intimidated by the platform yeah it took me so long to get on it and then once I was it took me so long to actually post something God forbid somebody I know sees the content and that algorithm is not in my favor no everybody you met once on the street sees it it's true it's true so that is actually so interesting to think about how we've changed right cuz obviously we have but also the landscape of stuff around us has changed so much and like what I just feel like the world moves so much faster now like obviously it's an understood thing that like a hundred years ago change happened way less rapidly but I'm like even thinking about our world in the last two years like politically socially like in a postco kind of world has changed so much so quickly what is being in like you personally in your life are in such a period of change like that's just the nature of our age group but also the world changing so much how do you like engage with change Ah that's a good question I mean I feel like all the stuff you've been talking about like that inherently changes us like when our environment changes when the culture changes like that changes us and it's one of those things I don't remember the actual term for this but it was so interesting I remember learning this in my Sociology class in college where the example she gave was what students wear around campus on the one hand you know culture tells students what to wear but on the other hand what the students wear informs the culture yeah and it's a mutual thing and there's really no beginning or end I don't even know if you could consider it this circle but it's this thing that's like constantly feeding each other yeah and so I guess there's a little bit of that here and there is a lot of change going on our good friend in roommate is no longer a roommate which is tragic yeah it is really tragic we have just a lot of change going on socially with our mutual friends whether they're in the next stage of life doing this that the other of course there's always our own families that kind of thing so I mean unless it's something I I'm really not excited about I like to say that like I I don't know if welcome change is the right word cuz like and no nobody's like hey the door's open want want to come change some things in my life and and let me not know about it like no want to shake things up things up no but with that being said it usually is a sign that there's period of growth which I try to think of in those terms like as an optimistic thing yeah so obviously there's things that like like Sophie moving out is on the surface sad right but you know obviously the two of us will focus on things like her happiness and her future and like is it ideal no but like change is good yeah you know totally most of the time change is good I agree so to go back to what you were talking about like you were saying focusing on the optimistic side of change I feel like I mean we know that naturally human beings tend to kind of fear and like have apprehension around change a lot that like change is just hard for human beings to deal with so when you get to a place where you know change is happening how do you change your mindset to focus on the optimistic side of it as opposed to focusing on like the fearful oh we're going to have to do stuff like what's that like for you I think sometimes it's what I would call second reaction something happens and it might take you by surprise take you off guard and you know like you said your instinct is to react in probably like not great way yeah you're either going to be upset about it or stressed out about it or or whatnot but I think that you know you can't get down on yourself for that kind of a normal reaction and so taking that second time around to try and focus on the positive I think you should give yourself a pat on the back because I do think that there's a lot of people still who might like time and time again continue to to wallow and so if you can give yourself enough Grace to you know feel whatever it is you're feeling but then Second Time Around think about you know who this is going to benefit or what good could come out of it I think that that is doing your job as a human to try and do your best yeah totally so doing your job as a human is like trying to look on the bright side of things what else would you consider part of our job as human beings our job as human beings the first thing I think primarily is like to love ourselves and to love others I would argue that that has a lot to do with you know just our existence in general yeah it's all built from love built to love whatever you want to call it but besides that I think that even what I was talking about like oh like well how do you find that glass half full and I think that it is a way of thinking that is actually quite creative because if you're not willing to see what's not in front of you you're not going to be able to come up with something positive out of Darkness but a way of creative thinking to me is essentially problem solving and change is sometimes a problem on the surface level and so you being able to not like talk yourself out of something in a Delirious way but there's always something and we can always like create something that is a solution or that's helpful or I don't know but I think that that creative thinking helps with that yeah I totally agree and I think that often times I mean I had this whole other episode with um Vincent Andrews who's Jessica's husband I don't know if you've had a chance to listen to it yet but he was talking about his research on creativity and how um like we can make it more accessible to people that was super interesting like an education yeah and I think a lot of the times we don't give ourselves credit for being creative people like just not not us like you and I no you're right I mean you can not even try as a person but you are inherently creative because of the capabilities of our mind even right and it's like to me that is inherent in what being a human being is is creating something new adding to the world around you totally um and it's funny because a lot of people don't get the like out Word stamp of approval for creativity like if you're not in the Arts like even at my job everybody in my industry which is advertising marketing is kind of in a creative industry but with that being said you still have these labels of like I'm on a the creative team at my agency right there are people who I work with who are not on the creative team does that mean they're not creative no but I think sometimes they forget that they are because they don't have that label yeah totally well and even for from a very young age like we get this stamp of like oh well they're a creative kid or oh they're not and it's kind of one of those things that's like even if you have like a math-m minded brain and not an art brain math takes a lot of creativity like you were saying the um like inherent problem solving and critical thinking like you have to be creative to think outside the box and how are new formulas found and creative mhm except for creativity and I think so much of it is also in the application like just because you're not creating some new formula which is also a great path that doesn't mean you're not creating something because it's how you use tools to create Solutions yeah and so if you're someone who's using this you know algorithm to solve a problem at your workplace that they were struggling with or it made it more efficient more efficient but like that's fantastic that's such a creative use of time and space and I think it's the people who think in that way that sets them apart in their career because so often it requ I mean if you think about it that kind of thinking is so outside the box you have to be the one to think about it nobody's going to ask you to do that because they don't even have the words or the capabilities to think about that and so what sets you apart in your career is being able to tap into the creative problem solving because then you're doing something that nobody even else thought was possible thought to ask about and you're presenting something that is giving your team really great value yeah because of your creativity absolutely well and even in that like you're on the creative team at your job using you as an example I'm sure that there are so many like systems and like operations that you still do every single day like being on the creative team doesn't mean you get to like like Walts into work and just like dance and paints I'm using thes saris.com that's not creative that's looking up a list of words cuz I can't think of something yeah so it is so interesting how labels impact how we think about ourselves but also like going back to what you were saying with the like culture impacting humans and humans impacting culture it's almost like does life imitate art or does art imitate life kind of question I know hate questions like that Reese knows this yes but it's almost like well does the label impact the way we think about ourselves or does the way we think about ourselves impact the label that we're given and there is something there um so that I mean I'm I'm joking I mean I do kind of get annoyed if I get two in the weeds with questions like that but I mean they exist for a reason and it's it's true it's the whole like nature nurture thing right like if someone tells you you're a creative person or if it's in your job description you're gonna remember that sometimes yeah and vice versa and so I think it does make an impact and that's why I think these affirmations um especially things that people wouldn't expect right like say you're someone who's like a a good-look person if someone tells you you're good-look like obviously like that's you know maybe nice to hear but it's something that is kind of on the surface but when when somebody notices something in you that you don't obviously notice in yourself I think that is like the biggest compliment and like motivator that you can give somebody so someone who doesn't automatically have that label as a creative person like say you're working in you know finance and you're a manager and you tell somebody on your team that what they did was a creative solution that's such a compliment that maybe is not like that's outside of the norm and it's adding value to that person's life and their sense of self totally well and that labels can also be really positive sometimes right like I know I label myself a writer and do I write every day absolutely not but that's so true I mean I call myself an artist and I haven't painted in so long I'm I'm supposed to paint today actually I haven't gotten there yet it'll happen it'll happen but it's like there is something so motivating to me when I'm like no I am a writer that actually makes me me want to write you know as opposed to being like well I'm not a writer because I don't write like changing the framework around that too that it can help be a motivating factor to you know be that type of person that you want to be it matters how you talk to yourself yeah it really does totally does so on that what are how do you talk to yourself oh I say the most wonderful things to myself I'm a princess I'm I'm the queen of my own life I mean I'm amazing I'm going to be a chef one day and an author and I'm going to shop for Trader Joe's and eat the world's best ketchup and the best most fabulous five star hotel I'm going to be a chef and an author and and are those things even going to happen who knows but the fact that I tell myself these things I think can't set me up for anything but success why why do you think that is because I think some people would say you're actually setting yourself up for delusion you're actually I don't think that right I I totally agree with you but I think there are some people out there that are like don't lie to yourself even though in my mind I totally agree with you that even if it doesn't happen thinking about that and having something to strive for is really powerful and helps you today even if you don't end up getting there but what makes you so certain that talk TR at least actively trying to talk to yourself like that and shooting for that is setting you up for Success well I think it goes back to like how you talk to yourself and your perception of yourself that's where I think everything begins everything that you interact with with the world around you whether it's how you speak to others whether it's what you accomplish in your life I really do think is a lot of a reflection with how you feel about yourself and your sense of your own worth and so saying things like that to myself is my way of setting me up for success and the thing about you know delusion and that kind of thing totally valid and I think that it is this kind of double-edged Sword where you know think about a parent who tells their kid you can be anything when you grow up is that actually true no but it's a good lesson for kids right because as you get older you understand that even though there are some things that are not possible the the you allowing yourself to think that anything is possible is setting you up for success I know that royalty is not in my future I live in the states there not going to marry a prince if I did would I even be considered royalty probably not so like it's just not in the cards right but with that being said words have whatever meaning you really want to give to them and so like I'm My Own princess does that mean I'm royalty no but I am my own princess I kind of love that um words have whatever meaning you want to give to them talk more about that I have always been someone who's really fascinated with language um and like the connotation of language like to some people because of their own experiences they might be they might have a totally different perception of the same word that somebody else does yeah it's kind of well this might be getting off track but I think about this sometimes where like if I'm looking at this green plant over here and Reese is also looking at this green plant are we seeing the same shade of green I genuinely don't know I don't know if we will ever know I I don't think there's any way to prove exactly yeah and so in a less tangible way like we are all giving our own meaning to things and so language is just an extension of that words have different connotations positive negative and they change over time like I mean anything think about the word oh gosh I don't know or even like going back to the other thing like creative yeah creative like the root of that is creating something or Creator we all create things but you wouldn't necessarily think that like a construction worker is creative but they are literally creating a building or you know and so it's like that the connotation around that word has been removed from actually the start of what that word was intended to describe to denote and I mean I know you're very interested in poetry you find that interesting I honestly cannot say the same for myself but there is something to be said for playing with language and knowing that one word could have seven different meanings and those different meanings could emote different feelings in a person tot and how they're grouped together um can give you a totally different feeling as a reader and as a writer um obviously writing is my profession and so I care about this probably more than the average person um but it's my job as the person writing messages for Brands and in advertising that the general public sees it's not their job to be writing stuff like that but it's my job to anticipate how they're going to feel when they read it and so me thinking about the connotations of language really deeply and how those words pair together is so important in order for me to get the right feeling across to the person I want to be seeing that message totally well and even thinking about like you said how it can change when you string different words together like tragedy it's like oh well that was a tragedy of course that like evokes all these sad things but then you think beautiful tragedy and it's like okay now we're like somewhere Shakespearean and like even just adding that one word though it's like those are two totally different things right yeah so I think that's so fascinating I also want to go back to something that you said about how we as attribute meaning to so many things and that language is just an extension of that um obviously the name of the podcast is making meaning and I do think that inherently human beings make meaning whether we're consciously aware of it or not and I totally agree with you that language is is just another way that we do that and it's a way that we do it with other people cuz it's the vehicle we have to communicate to connect um as someone who like you said your profession is words words are your profession and trying to not guess but like deconstruct and approximate how other people are going to view the meaning of what you create how do you I don't know think about that and like as you are literally on this end of like how does this product or brand come across to this person what does this brand now mean to this person because of words like how do you think about that when you're working and I don't know how much you might but well I um will not mention the name of my actual client but for example one of my clients is is an airline and it's a pretty well-known Airline and the meaning even a word like nose could could associate something like nose dive which is a plane crashing words like crash words I mean anything that could potentially have this feeling of of not safety right is something that you would have to really be careful to avoid and I'm not giving very good examples but there are some really like everyday words that just wouldn't work for that brand right because somebody would hear them and it would subconsciously trigger something negative right that could potentially make the brand look bad but if one of my other you know food clients said the same thing it nobody would think twice yeah and so thinking about the context of what that brand is and what they're doing is incredibly impactful and so imperative to think about and the other thing would just be you know the target audience right like who is this audience what is their mindset what are their beliefs what is their age group yeah you know the same message to you know 60 yearolds will not hit the same with 25y olds yeah um and so that is something that plays a huge role and then the other thing is is history so if there was an event or an incident that happened you know recently that was you know picked up by the news or something that's something that needs to be on the Forefront of our minds when we're talking about you know maybe we shouldn't say that maybe we should be more sensitive about this kind of topic right that kind of thing totally that it's just it's just so fascinating to me because you inherently are like even though you're a writer and your job is to write MH you are also Al practicing so deeply like psychology sociology a lot of psychology like you said history like there are so many there's like a car chase happening on our street that's scary I okay yeah like actually um but there's actually so many other things that are going into what you're doing besides just writing and I often times think that that's true of any profession and right now we're kind of like diving into language and writing I totally agree you know skills without smarts is not helpful right well cuz even thinking about like going back to the example of a construction worker sure maybe their expertise the way yours is like writing and definitions and grammar and that kind of thing is like understanding different building materials and like how to like what kind of wood works best for for this or like what kind of foundation is this needed but I bet absolutely along the process they're thinking about like the visual aspect of this what if I'm building a hospital oh my gosh there's like actually a car chase happening I don't know what's happening but there's another police officer that is crazy this intersection is crazy this intersection is crazy um that is something that has not changed nope the accident every week every week um but like I bet like building for a hospital is so different than building for a restaurant than building for a home like the way that you think about that of course the principles of like sound construction don't leave the same way the principles of like grammar and diction don't leave when you write but like switching the context like they're also using so much of your experience of a human being to connect and create for other humans and when you're I think nine times out of 10 no matter what our work is we're doing it for humans and so having that human first mindset I think makes any company so much more successful and you were talking about you know different kinds of construction for different buildings and you mentioned restaurants and I think that is a fantastic example of you know designing with a human in mind I recently read a book by Danny Myers called setting the table who owns and runs restaurants primarily out of New York City but also Shake Shack and he talked yeah this his latest Venture um but he talked so much about what he calls enlightened Hospitality I would encourage anyone to read it it's a fantastic book even if you're not interested in owning your own business or restaurants but he talks so much about the details of how different things will impact a human whether it's the art on the wall or and some of these things you don't discover until the first month few months of the restaurant opening but listening to that human's feedback is essential for that restaurant to continue to be popular because if for example the floors are loud and it's a nice place where maybe a woman is going to be more likely to wear heels and then it's clinking and it's creating this noise that's really not appealing to the ear you know that might not even be something that the customer is registering or it might be something that bothers people who are dining who aren't the ones walking around right little details like that that go back to the human in their experience of the restaurant it doesn't matter how pretty it is if it's not serving that person's experience right because there's totally that thing that people have where it's like I don't know I just really like this place or like I just love the like feeling of this restaurant like your favorite restaurant like it just has this feeling and could very well be because of a series of small things things like that totally like a like a soft material and a quiet atmosphere and a nice color like all those little details add up even if you're not registering it well and I know for me water Botts in the way one of the most like really tangible things in this restaurant thing that is so important to me is lighting totally like I hate being in a restaurant where I'm like I cannot see the person across from me but also you don't want to go into a restaurant and it's like bright at night I mean if you like go to a brunch place and it's bright and sunlet like that's lovely but if you're going out to a really nice like maybe romantic dinner but again knowing your audience knowing the context of the time of day and the occasion for that meal like it's the same thing I mean all the same principles whether it's writing an advertising for someone or building a restaurant the context the person the audience like they're all the same questions that we're asking so why do you think it's important then to be asking those questions do you do you feel as though it really is like just everything does come back to being a human being and that that is like the important thing I think it does but I also think it depends on what kind of what kind of person you are I mean if you want to be the kind of person who whether you're an employee or the owner of a business if you care about The Human Experience then putting the human first is what's going to bring you success if your primary goal is you know money and you're not thinking about the experience of somebody there's a chance your business could be really successful and you know you just lucked out but there's also a chance that you know after some success it's going to crash and burn because the human's not being served at the end of the day and people get tired of that yeah well and it is so interesting to me too thinking about this from a more like economic Viewpoint and in like so many small business or all business owners right it's like well if you're running a business we all need money to survive right and if you're running a business even if it's like your baby your child at the end of the day it also has to make money in order to stay viable it does um and I think so often you hear stories of people that like oh you put money ahead of the person but it's like actually by putting the human first that will inherently support you financially too right totally I mean investing in people um whether it's the people you're serving in that case you know you're your customers or your clients or the people within that company your servers or your people on the creative team like investing in all the people is going to bring you success and it's okay as a business owner to have financial goals be one of your main priorities they should be in order for your business to survive for a business um but that those two things you know should be working congruently like they shouldn't be constantly butting heads people or money like finding a way to make them work together I think is is the goal um but even thinking about my company you know the man who owns it is a fantastic person and he cares about his employees does that mean he doesn't care about the business succeeding like no like but we all want to succeed together yeah you know well and even thinking about that it's like that's probably why the business does succeed so well and like why people stay there for so long because they it's also that like owner mentality like they care about the company because it yeah feels you have that ownership around it feeling like somebody cares about you your success your life outside of your job too yeah um it just it does so much more than you know an extra $5 ever would you know yeah so true okay so we're nearing the end of our time but I want one more question before I wrap up with our final question um to bring it back to the big picture of making meaning how do you think your concept of like living a meaningful life has changed or stayed the same in the last two years since we recorded I think the biggest thing is the question of what are your priorities because the things in our life that you know are going to give us the the greatest most valuable meaning are the things that are should be probably our highest priorities right so whether that's your family your friends your health um and I think that you know the average person if you're writing down like oh the top five things all those things are going to come up but it's much it takes a lot more practice and skill I think to in the average day of normal life to actually notice those things yeah it's really easy to accidentally or unintentionally deprioritize one of those big things in your life totally well and I think it's really easy to like say oh this is really important to me or this is a core value or like a key facet of the life I want to live or the person that I want to be but not have your daily habits behaviors choices mindsets actually align with those things right like that's not an easy thing to do and I I think the awareness of it is important like knowing that you're a human being who stuff's going to come up like something at work is going to make you cancel a dinner with friends or whatever and that's going to happen but on the whole trying to align yourself with reminding yourself you know what are my priorities how can I keep those priorities and how can I like really cut out time that I'm spending on other things like I've start started spending a lot less time on social media which is kind of an obvious one but it's given me more time to do other things that are more important to me yeah totally okay very last question because this is what we always end on what is one word to describe how you feel right now quiet it's so quiet in our house on the weekends it is isn't it and there's also something to be said for another meaning of that which is similar to like a feeling of Peace yeah you know well I love you I love our home and our home does have a feeling of peace and you give me a feeling of Peace you to thank you so much for the time for being the best friend and making me a better version of myself love you I love you