What is Creativity and How Do We Use It with Creativity Expert and Instructor Vincent Andrews
Reese Brown (00:28.11)
We're just going to hop right into it. Vincent, thank you so much for joining me today and taking the time to have this conversation. I really appreciate it.
VIncent Andrews (00:37.014)
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited.
Reese Brown (00:39.142)
Yeah, absolutely. So first things first, the question I always ask everyone who comes on, what is one thing you're grateful for today?
VIncent Andrews (00:47.23)
I'd say I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful that I've just had the opportunity to do some of the things that I've been really interested in and continue to just show my passion and show other people what I'm passionate about.
Reese Brown (01:04.454)
I love that. Of course, at Coheer Collective and Making Meaning, passion is like, we encourage everyone to pursue the fact that you've had the opportunity to do that. It's lovely and wonderful. Now, the second question I always ask, what is your story? I know that is kind of a hefty question, so however you feel called to answer that in this moment,
VIncent Andrews (01:31.966)
I'd say I think my story is really one about navigating the arts and navigating creativity and I feel like most of my life I've kind of shown that I've had a general aptitude towards the arts and in creativity even in general but trying to figure out like what role that would play in my life and How I would use it in the future because it's especially hard and I've talked to
a lot of my students now, when they're really good artists and they're trying to make decisions about what to do with their lives, or if they're just really good creatively, I tell them it's like most of our culture pushes students away from the arts. So especially when you're considering your futures, most students are always leaning towards becoming a doctor or nurse, things like that. But I tell them like really tap into your skills and your interest.
And I think really my story has been about, okay, how can I use all the resources allotted to me currently in whatever state I'm in my life? How can I use that to get me to where I want to be in the end?
Reese Brown (02:44.934)
You know, I think that's great. So often, I think it's really easy to ignore the resources we do have right in front of us. But also, it's hard when we don't have a lot of resources to be able to do something with the smart how we use them. So that's really wonderful. Now, I'm going to go ahead and start.
for our listeners, you are an expert in creativity. You are currently a professor of creativity and that is kind of your jam. You have a background in sculpture and then of course studying creativity. So just diving in, first question, how would you define creativity?
VIncent Andrews (03:28.726)
I'd probably say like creativity is generally like the ability to think on a fundamental level like take the things that you've learned and a lot of it is done unconsciously so it's not necessarily you doing the taking but really just an engagement with things that you've learned and then being able to
turn all those experiences and those ideas into a generation of new thoughts and new ideas. And I mentioned that a lot of it is done unconsciously because there is a lot of work on the conscious level to like learn content and to become technically proficient at anything that you're trying to learn within any domain specifically. But
somehow I personally believe unconsciously all these all these learning experiences ultimately are resolved by internal unconscious methods within ourselves so it's really having the patience to allow that to happen not trying to consciously exploit that
all the time but I think it just comes with practice and comes with being open and comes with being inquisitive trying constantly trying to learn new things all those play a role into how your creativity will ultimately evolve.
Reese Brown (04:55.247)
Hmm
Reese Brown (05:04.342)
I love that. So what do you think the main difference is between the subconscious aspect of creativity and a more conscious aspect of creativity? Because I totally agree with you that it creativity feels like one of those things that is kind of like an unseen constant for us all. But of course, certain people I think are more skilled at tapping into that. What do you think that is?
VIncent Andrews (05:30.359)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (05:34.002)
So I'd say like the biggest difference is it comes down to like the levels of creativity. So I guess if you were to research creativity more, there's a thing called big C creativity, which like new novel ideas that could be socially, environmentally.
really like a culturally changing type level of creativity when you think of like Einstein's like ideas that really changed and revolutionized like how people viewed math and science like those are big c-type level creativities
So I think the unconscious plays more of a role that type of creativity and it takes a while to develop that but I think most of the time we're working within like a small rc level creativity where it's like if you're driving to work one day and you're trying to figure out the best way to get to work and you just have an idea to say oh i'm gonna go this other route because this other
Reese Brown (06:33.279)
Mmm.
VIncent Andrews (06:36.63)
thing has been slow like little see creativity is like more mundane and it's things that happen regularly and it's not really a new or revolutionary idea per se and it may be a new idea to you but it's probably an idea that somebody else has probably used so generally if we're working in work environments and we're working in groups trying to come up with new ideas you often find that a lot of those ideas are ideas that people have probably used before and you're kind of working through.
what you know consciously to be creative and you can come up with smaller C creativity through those methods but it's very rare that you're in a group session and you're working with somebody and you come up with a revolutionary idea that's going to change the whole world really.
Reese Brown (07:20.73)
Sure. I think a lot of the times people are discouraged from thinking that they are a creative person.
Because one, I think you said you kind of live in a society discouraging people from pursuing typically creative paths And from my point of view it seems like a lot of the time people view this small c creativity as true creativity that only big c creativity is actual creativity Oh, well that's for creative people, but i'm not creative even though you're you may be doing small c creativity every single day
that there is such a disconnect between the two and maybe a lack of appreciation for small c creativity
VIncent Andrews (08:10.125)
Well, I think it kind of goes into what I was telling you earlier where
Parents don't want their children generally to be artists or to be musicians or performers and things like that because they're traditionally known to not bring in money. You're going to go to Los Angeles or New York and struggle trying to become an artist or a performer or something like that. And I think really just culturally there's this association with creativity and the fine arts and I think that's the main problem.
So when people think about creativity, like I said, people push people away from it because they're like, oh, if you're creative, then, and you ask most people, are you creative? They're thinking about whether or not they're good in painting or drawing or sculpting, things like that. But they aren't thinking about the things like you said, that they may be doing all these many see creativity things throughout the day in different domains that they don't normally associate with creativity because.
Reese Brown (09:06.384)
Right.
VIncent Andrews (09:06.966)
because it's not art necessarily. And that's a big part of the research that I'm actually doing now. As a doctoral student is, I'm trying to illustrate what creativity looks like in other domains because I don't like the fact that we associate it and we limit it to the arts. And I was like, we really need to look at it across the board and if we can start to develop and cultivate creativity even within these other classes.
we can really start to grow the level of achievement from students and our innovations in both technology, science, mathematics, and all those types of things.
Reese Brown (09:45.738)
Yeah, absolutely. So what if you found the most, either the biggest hurdle to work you're trying to do to kind of break that silo between fine art and its connection to creativity, what's the biggest hurdle there?
VIncent Andrews (10:04.814)
I think the biggest hurdle that I'll have overall and most people notice it in education, my main program is educational studies. It's the fact that traditionally our model for education has been the same since the beginning and it's...
People are really hesitant to change or to think about alternatives to the way that we educate students currently. I think creativity is a little less controversial than some of the other things that people might want to incorporate that maybe even we know we need to incorporate. And that's what excites me because most people...
will agree that creativity is substantially important. And it's just interesting that we still don't incorporate it in any type of way. So part of what I'm doing is really show teachers, administrators, policymakers that creativity comes through every domain. And we don't have to necessarily change the system. It's just about really educating the teachers of what creativity looks like.
teaching students about the creative process, working to identify it within all those domains, and then just find ways to incorporate it into the system that we already have.
Reese Brown (11:21.866)
Yeah, no, I think that's great because like you said, it's going to be impossible to change a system, especially one as big and complex as education overnight, but beginning to imbue the already daily process of educating with these kind of baby steps towards creativity will hopefully start to see that evolution take place. So that's one of the biggest hurdles. What do you think is the...
biggest, I guess, progress you've seen so far in really trying to make this work happen and begin communicating to people that we're all inherently creative. What's been one of your biggest wins, I guess?
VIncent Andrews (12:07.788)
I think really just talking to the public about it, talking to people who aren't administrators, talking to parents.
Because it's funny when I have conversations with just random strangers or parents and they hear this and they're just like that makes complete sense. And it's just like, why aren't we doing it? And it's, it's just funny that there are some easy concepts that we can incorporate into our education that gives students more flexibility and individuality. But we just were too afraid to do it because we have all these deadlines that we need to meet all these benchmarks and standards that we need to
stick with and we really we need more leaders who are willing to be creative enough to explore alternatives to what we're doing at the very least.
Reese Brown (12:57.951)
Yeah.
I want to go back to something I said at the beginning before we dive deeper into the kind of education system because I definitely want to keep exploring that. But to tie back to kind of your definition of creativity, you mentioned that it's something we can practice. How would you tell someone that maybe doesn't have any experience of creativity to start practicing and growing that muscle? What does practicing creativity look like?
VIncent Andrews (13:17.099)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (13:30.774)
I really think it's it kind of starts with having that technical knowledge or content knowledge I think you need to be like really proficient in something whether that's Dance or sports or math science art? So it kind of starts with really committing to just learning What whatever it is that you're passionate about or whatever it is that you're already good at? It's possible to have a lot of knowledge in something and still not be creative
Reese Brown (13:38.915)
Mmm.
VIncent Andrews (13:59.602)
So I think a big part of that too is the development of an inquisitive nature. Like you have to be able to ask questions about the information that you're learning or that you already know. And I think that's where a lot of people get stuck. You see a lot of scientists, mathematicians who become consumed with a lot of theories and methods that were done before them and they never reached that level of creativity because they kind of hold these things to be true and they don't necessarily question whether or not.
Maybe parts of that might not be true and maybe there's other alternatives. Um, so you need to like, I don't know, it's difficult because you can learn a lot about a lot of things, but you really have to start with your passion. And usually your passion is going to lead you towards trying to ask those questions and trying to figure out alternatives to things and pushing yourself to be better. Um, so I think that's the way that you start to practice.
Reese Brown (14:31.365)
Right.
VIncent Andrews (14:57.174)
But then occasionally you just need to, a part of creativity is incubation. If you delve into creative research, really meaning like you have to like allow your brain, you have to get into a state of like almost meditation or relaxation where you're.
Reese Brown (15:14.294)
Mmm.
VIncent Andrews (15:15.198)
not so consumed consciously. It's like after you learn these things, and I mentioned it earlier, like the unconscious part of you will start to take all that information and try to resolve it into new ideas if you're already asking questions, but you need to give yourself space to allow that to happen.
If you're always consciously trying to learn new things or you're always consciously consumed with other things and your brain is always working, then you don't allow that space for your brain to resolve that information in any sort of way. So I think that's part of the practice. Most people, again, most people in our culture aren't used to slowing down. We're so consumed with TV and phones and people don't necessarily like to just go out on a lake and just sit and try not to think.
Reese Brown (15:55.272)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (16:03.694)
practice meditation and all those things and I think those movements are starting to grow a little more but a big part of just being creative is putting yourself in that space and allowing to happen like I think it happens frequently with artists because You'll find most artists are in the studio and they're even though they're working really hard technically All the time sometimes artists will just sit in their studio and they don't know what's gonna happen And they just allow things to happen and I think the same can be said for a dancer
Reese Brown (16:03.718)
Mm.
VIncent Andrews (16:33.568)
or somebody who plays sports and things like that. So it's just as hard as you want to work to try to come up with new ideas and things. It's like you do that. You do have to put in a lot of work, but you also have to be able to just slow down and give your space to process that information.
Reese Brown (16:38.662)
Right.
Reese Brown (16:50.574)
Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like a, it feels paradoxical, right? Cause like you were saying so much of like, oh, we're gonna innovate and push forward and come up with new ideas. That's usually associated with like hard work. Most of the grindstone.
day in, day out time, but exactly what you're saying, the research shows us we need time to puzzle information, fully process and allow new things to arrive to truly get innovation and creativity. And it almost reminds me a little bit, I hate this phrase because it's such like a buzzword, but like this healthcare kind of move that's happening where allow yourself time to rest
VIncent Andrews (17:22.678)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (17:33.922)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (17:39.376)
It's like speaking personal experience when I am paying attention to how I feel or allowing myself to take breaks and pause. That is when some of I think my best work happens is in those spaces in between. So that totally it resonated with me, my own kind of work that I'm doing. So that's wonderful.
VIncent Andrews (17:53.538)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (18:02.878)
Yeah, I think you kind of alluded to the fact earlier that we may be doing creative things in so many ways throughout the day and I think part of it is just learning about the creative process. That's a good way to practice and starting to learn how to recognize what is creativity and I think once you start to recognize that, hey, I'm doing all these other things that I don't normally or typically associate with it.
It kind of feeds you and I find this a lot easier to be creative When when you understand that process and when you can recognize the things that you're already doing and if you can recognize like how often things are happening you can kind of start to Get into your creative flow and a lot of people are written books on how to get into the creative flow But a lot of is recognized recognition and understanding how it actually works
Reese Brown (18:39.607)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (18:55.186)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. And realizing like, you.
Most people probably have already done it at some point and just allowed that to happen. So set a couple times creative process. I think that that's the word that most people hear. It's like you said, it's typically associated with fine arts and like what's your creative process? But for everyday creativity or even bigger creativity, what would you define as the creative process? What does that truly look like?
VIncent Andrews (19:05.271)
Yep.
VIncent Andrews (19:28.206)
Yeah. Here. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, so I would probably say the creative processes, a lot of pieces that I described to you earlier. So it's it starts with that content, knowledge, technical practice, becoming really proficient at whatever domain it is. The next piece is having that inquisitive nature.
Reese Brown (19:34.462)
No, you're okay, you're totally fine, don't worry about it.
I'm sorry.
VIncent Andrews (19:56.778)
that development of being able to ask those questions. And I think a lot of that just really comes from the type of educators that you have. I found that it's really, while I used to work in a classical school and using like Socratic methods of teaching where you're asking students questions versus telling them what the answer is and teaching them how to think for themselves. That's all, that's really important. You have to learn how to do that. But then I think there's...
Reese Brown (20:14.351)
Right.
VIncent Andrews (20:23.058)
A lot of researchers haven't talked as much about it as inner disciplinarity.
The fact that you know a lot about one area, I think it's also important that you're trying new things and you're experimenting with new things because I think that's specifically when creativity happens is when you're combining an old idea that you have with something new that you just learned and a lot of people probably find that they get their most creative ideas when they're learning something new.
Reese Brown (20:53.601)
Mm-hmm.
VIncent Andrews (20:54.826)
because you kind of start to see it in a different way and it's just something in your brain that clicks at the right moment and it allows it to happen but then the last piece that incubation that we talked about and
I mean, really there's no like magic amount of time that can bring about creativity. So for some people it could happen really fast. Some people it could take a while. So it's another thing I'm really interested in like researching within the classroom is incubation. Like how much free time can we allow for students to kind of develop their creativity and allow them to have those moments of excitement.
Reese Brown (21:34.778)
Hmm
VIncent Andrews (21:34.966)
But it'd be pretty controversial because like I said, for some kids, it may never happen. And for others, it may just take a long time and others it may happen right away so.
you'd probably end up wasting more time for a lot of kids than anything, but I'm like, there's a lot of ways to do incubation. So maybe we can just practice meditation methods or something for a few minutes with the kids or something. And it's probably likely to contribute to their long-term creative development, regardless if they can kind of understand how to do those types of things.
Reese Brown (21:49.446)
Hahaha.
Reese Brown (22:09.142)
Yeah, totally. Makes so much sense to me. And I love that thinking about it in these parts, like the content knowledge being inquisitive and allowing for that incubation time, those three things can apply to anything, right? That, I think, really is the cool part of listening to you talk about creativity is that you just see how
VIncent Andrews (22:26.242)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (22:34.682)
Arise in so many things and like you said it's something athletes do right like being creative about how to Like what play to call or how to adjust when you're in the moment in order to like be the most effective you can be Absolutely that takes creativity and that is I don't know that's just wildly fascinating to me and
VIncent Andrews (22:48.904)
Yep.
Reese Brown (23:04.678)
ways.
VIncent Andrews (23:05.926)
Yeah, and it's actually funny because I was thinking just the other day that Even as I think about creativity, there's like this knowledge level like this internal brain power type of creativity that we've been talking about most of this but I also think just like this Creativity and physical movement and more of this association of like how people were working and I even adapted my definition of creativity because I used to always think of it as just
just learning within your brain, just content knowledge of something. But it can also be like performative almost, like through sports or dance and all those.
So I kind of equate creativity to those moments they call, what do they call it in sports, when you like get into the zone. I think those are like moments of creativity and I'm wanting to research that a little more too, but it's like that point where you just, you're so proficient at something and you've done it so many times that you just don't have to think about it anymore.
Reese Brown (23:53.697)
Oh, yeah.
Reese Brown (24:05.283)
right?
VIncent Andrews (24:06.506)
And that's generally how it is through learning as well. But during those moments that happen for athletes, they always say that, I don't even know what happened. It's like everything just kind of came together. And it's always the people who practice a lot and put in a lot of work and put a lot of conscious effort into practicing. And eventually you'll get to these points where you just get into the zone and things just happen and it just flows out of you.
Reese Brown (24:19.491)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (24:33.254)
Yeah, it makes me think.
So growing up, I was in acting was what I mean, but I also did competitive volleyball. So I was kind of entrenched in both like traditional sports and like really fine arts. But one thing always came up across the board was either learning my lines before I go on stage and like studying character or with volleyball,
Reese Brown (25:07.198)
you work on your body and your strength, and drilling and practicing. Like you do all of this prep work for both of these skills, but for both of them, performing a scene or performing in a game, my coaches would always say, now you just throw it away. You've already done the work. You know your lines. You know the drill. You know your teamwork. You know the character. Throw it away. And I was always like, that's so strange that for both fine arts and sports, it's like all of this drilling and prep work
VIncent Andrews (25:29.127)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (25:37.232)
to throw it away and just let what you already know arise. And that, I mean, don't let me put words in your mouth, but it sounds very much like that is what you would consider like a moment of creativity. It's like you throw it away and then the creativity can arise.
VIncent Andrews (25:39.315)
Yep.
VIncent Andrews (25:47.511)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (25:51.818)
Yeah, you just allow your brain and your experience to work. It's like you've done it so many times that like, yeah, you will make mistakes, but it's like more often than not, you should do what's right because you've practiced it so many times. And, um, in the, I recall also in sports when I was younger, it's
You very rarely have coaches who tell you to release all that information. So I remember when I was probably going through middle school and baseball, like I would always think about like every time that we practice. And a lot of times I would make mistakes just because I would overthink it. Um, and it really, I mean, it was years after I stopped playing baseball that.
that it just got really easy because then it was just in me. And I guess that was my point of relaxation when I didn't have to think about the practice and all of that. But it's like now I can do some of those things that I had a lot of trouble doing, even though I practiced it a million times. And it really comes down to being able to see practice for practice. But when you're in performance, just let it happen and just try to relax. And it's hard to teach people to do that.
Reese Brown (26:52.1)
Yeah.
Absolutely. What do you think? So to kind of speak to like what you were just saying years after you're not like professionally competing in this sport anymore, it does get easier. And I think so many people have that experience of like, well, the pressure is gone now and I can just like chill and it gets so much easier.
VIncent Andrews (27:11.447)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (27:14.806)
It makes me think about the level of like fun and enjoyment that comes out of these things. What would you say the relationship between like fun and play and creativity is?
VIncent Andrews (27:28.666)
I think it's just really just tied to passion like I said earlier It's so it's a lot of things like I said you can learn a lot about a lot of random things that you just don't consider fun and I mean somewhat. I mean we're in school. We have to learn about philosophy We have to learn take these math client classes chemistry physics And a lot of us have grown up to be
really process oriented so we can learn these things and be really smart and get straight A's, but we don't necessarily love to do that. So when it comes to passion, it's like that's what you want to play with and that's what comes natural for you. It's probably one of the first things that you can relax doing. If you're taking a
Math tests and you're just nervous about doing it and you don't really like math You're gonna be a lot more anxious But you'll be more confident as an artist if you've always done that and there's very little pressure And and people will look at you and say how do you do so well in this?
and you don't even try that hard. But those are the things that I'm trying to get teachers to recognize because I mean, it's a pretty common phenomenon for like teachers to say, oh, I have this one student who he never tries, but he gets straight A's and I don't know how to get him to, it's like they have natural talents and skills and aptitudes, creative aptitudes towards that discipline. And it's important that we recognize that because a lot of times.
Reese Brown (28:40.415)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (28:51.16)
Mmm.
VIncent Andrews (28:52.81)
I think they do recognize it, but it's like we have to learn to see that as creativity and be able to cultivate it. We can't just keep trying to force them more information. I think when you have students like that, it's a good time to say, what can you create for me out of these formulas based off of what you know and give them those opportunities to think of new things and do new things. Because
Reese Brown (29:16.444)
Mmm... yeah.
VIncent Andrews (29:17.918)
Learning can become boring if you're just so focused on the technical part of it.
Reese Brown (29:22.794)
Right, and the rote memorization of it versus the combining and creating and evolving of it. Like those are very, very different. So just now you mentioned something about like.
VIncent Andrews (29:31.447)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (29:39.786)
how you just you'll feel more confident going into something if you have that practice under your belt. But I think also some people are just more confident with creativity or going into something totally blind than other people may be. How would you define creative confidence and how we start building that?
VIncent Andrews (29:53.858)
Thank you.
VIncent Andrews (30:05.206)
That's a good question. How would somebody be more confident and I mean I guess just like I said giving them the opportunities to do it and recognizing those Recognizing for what it is. I think a lot of times like you'll have students in these classes who are naturally creative I mean a teacher doesn't really have to cultivate it that much but they just don't have time and they don't recognize it and they
They're just like, say that for another day. Like we have to learn this. And then you have the parents who are like, okay, that's fine. And then the, that you're good in with this musical instrument, but let's get your math grades off and your science grades. Cause none of that matters. Like you need to go to business school. Um, so, so a lot of the creative confidence is in the acceptance of the environments that are in that creativity is important and regardless of how we're using it.
Reese Brown (30:33.254)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (30:44.398)
Right.
VIncent Andrews (30:59.498)
I mean, it's probably the most powerful tool that we have for ourselves. Like we need to start to see it as an opportunity and not as something that's just this free flow thinking that it's just meaningless and it's not going to do anything.
Reese Brown (31:07.501)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (31:14.574)
Right. So shifting gears just a little bit, I know we've touched on it throughout kind of this first part of the podcast. Just because I think with creativity inherently it is about how do you hone it? How do you practice it? Which of course calls school into question and a really big part of your work is imbuing creativity into education and making those policy changes.
I just want to open that up. What are some of the things you would like to talk about in terms of starting to really push creativity into the educational system?
VIncent Andrews (31:56.526)
Uh, that's really, it's just for me now it's kind of experimentation, but it's, I think we just have such a huge opportunity right now in education because we have so many private schools and charter schools, especially you look here in Texas, um, that are a little more flexible and they're a little more open to, uh, changing the traditional models of education. Um, so I just think it's really just important to have these conversations and there's always these, uh,
symposiums about creativity and all kinds of like lectures and meetings. There's a lot of people talking about it in the industry in so many different ways, but I think it's just, I think we need to continue to like not just talk to each other as industry professionals, but that we talk to parents and we talk to children and we teach it to children.
I think that's probably the most important thing for me is like trying to figure out a way that at the very least we can teach kids what the creative process is, what it looks like.
and that they all have creative aptitude in some area. And it doesn't have to be a subject school specific domain. There's a social domain, people who are like really good at like navigating relationships and bringing people together. I think that I wrote an article about that one a few weeks ago, but that's also a skill that you probably would only recognize on the playground or outside, but we don't assess kids outside. But there's people who are just naturally good at being leaders
Reese Brown (33:12.358)
Yeah, absolutely.
VIncent Andrews (33:29.68)
and different jobs, so we need to be able to recognize that, cultivate that in school and say, hey, you may not have all these other tactical skills, you may not be the most smartest in math or science, reading all those things, but you're gonna be a really good leader and we should put you in positions where you can lead groups and do things like that.
Some students have like really good creative like linguistic skills. They can communicate really well. They think really well about how to write.
So again, we need to be able to recognize all those things. So I think a big part of it is recognizing what we already do in the schools and kind of seeing that we can apply creativity here without having to change things. But I think it opens the door later to the acknowledgment that kids are skilled in all these different things. And we usually are boxing them into a corner of things that they have to preselect and do to sustain the economy that we already have.
better would our world be if we could start to like really focus and think about what kids are really good at and try to find ways to really bring that into the classroom. And talking to parents will help you identify those things because a lot of parents will tell you, my kids are really, really good in this, but they don't get to work in this in school. If you ask the students what you're good at, they'll tell you what they love and what they're passionate about. And generally they don't get to work on those things in school.
Reese Brown (34:40.991)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (34:57.829)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (34:59.182)
So some of the research I will do will go directly to parents and to students to ask you like, what's your top skill? What do you consider yourself to be the best at?
And kind of starting there and talking with teachers and having this cross collaboration, not just with teachers and administrators, but also with the parents and with the students so that everybody can sort of have a say in recognizing the creativity and the individual students by helping them really to get to where they're most likely to succeed.
Reese Brown (35:32.694)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that goes back to what you were saying earlier about the inquisitive part of school. It's like not just boxing kids in, but recognizing the importance of that interdisciplinarity and merging across topics or subjects, but also honoring the different types of intelligence that kids can display and the different skill sets
VIncent Andrews (35:59.127)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (36:02.608)
And I do think that there is a tendency to, like you said, parents are like, I want you to go to business school, I don't want you to be an artist because I want you to be successful and be able to take care of yourself and your family, which of course is important. And I do think comes from a place of love and care for your kids, obviously. But like you said, how much better could the world potentially be if we really start honoring those other aspects
VIncent Andrews (36:21.87)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (36:32.528)
to just embrace the places that they come alive and pursue that. What would you say is the most practical way that we could start implementing this into a school system?
VIncent Andrews (36:38.263)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (36:51.042)
I had written like a short paper on, maybe we just start by, I thought maybe like different levels of education, maybe it starts in middle school and it's one grader going into ninth grade and we like do some sort of assessment for students where we talk to them, we talk to their parents, we talk to teachers. We kind of evaluate.
whatever the parameters are to kind of determine like what is it what is it that we would consider to be their best creative aptitude at this point and that's something that you wouldn't have to do like every single year but if you can identify that either in middle school or early in high school then we can just use that information.
And perhaps like, well, I'm sure it would be the case that a lot of students would fit into these similar many categories. And teachers could focus maybe on different pieces of this throughout the year. It'd be hard to do an individualized curriculum for every single student, obviously. But it's something that you can have counselors who actually talk with the kids regularly kind of at least talk about
Reese Brown (37:50.925)
Right.
VIncent Andrews (38:03.716)
four or five categories and we say, okay, these students fit in this box creatively. These fit here, these fit here. Those five pieces would be a lot more easy to implement than trying to figure out the creative process for seven or 700 students or 4,000 students, whatever size the school is. So I think it's really just about starting somewhere.
Reese Brown (38:21.576)
Right.
VIncent Andrews (38:28.618)
trying to streamline it the best we can. Like we obviously won't capture every single thing when it comes to educating our students that way, but we will make it work. We'll understand creativity a lot more. They'll feel a little more empowered. And then when they go on to college or they become adults, they'll feel empowered enough that they can maybe navigate some of that on their own.
Reese Brown (38:33.222)
shore.
Reese Brown (38:52.706)
Right, they at least have some kind of foundation for that. Yeah, you also mentioned that, you know, encouraging kids in these specific areas like math, science, and the more typical school subject is partially, I forget exactly what you said, but.
VIncent Andrews (38:55.576)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (39:13.954)
contribute to society and I think we have this concept of how do we raise kids to be functioning productive members of society or money-making economy contributing members of society. Do you think there's an interplay between that concept of being a good society member and this new concept of creativity is? Do you think that creativity will help with that? Do you think that creativity
VIncent Andrews (39:21.483)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (39:28.266)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (39:43.968)
But what do you think?
VIncent Andrews (39:44.138)
Yeah, I absolutely just think it's going to explode and help with it because like I was really good in math growing up and it's like I went into the arts but it's like I wish someone had, I mean allow me more freedom within mathematics to like...
to really, I think at the time as a kid, you kind of think these mathematical equations, they're fixed and they're unchanging, and you can be really good at systematically solving these problems. But I was never really creatively thinking about it, even though I'm pretty sure I would have had the potential to do it, somebody would have said to me, like, you can create new formulas for things or.
Reese Brown (40:22.392)
Right.
VIncent Andrews (40:23.03)
you can do this, it would have helped so much. So in regard to like preparing students for the future and meeting economy expectations.
If we can start to recognize creativity within these disciplines, like I said, we can keep kids who have traits and natural abilities in those areas there, but we'll also create leaders who can think creatively in their positions and help move the field forward. Right now, we're essentially just preparing students for filling a role within a corporation or organization. And most people...
Reese Brown (40:49.335)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (40:59.102)
Most employees aren't thinking creatively about how can I grow this. Um, this organization that I'm growing for is like, I'm just doing my job and I'm, that's all I'm here and that's what we teach kids to do. You do your job and you make your money. You're a tear where, I mean, our economy is literally creatively, uh, motivated by a handful of individuals.
Reese Brown (41:05.574)
Right?
Reese Brown (41:10.134)
Yeah, check in the box.
VIncent Andrews (41:20.242)
So that's why I say like, what could our world be where even as an employee, you go into an organization, you can say this process can be better than I work in. Allow me to make changes to this. When you give people that perspective that things aren't fixed, like they could always be better or they can always grow will create more business leaders through that. I think everything's going to tie back to the things we already find important.
Nationally, it's just important that we just empower people to think about the way that they contribute to their roles in the future better than we have been because it's not just about your test scores and how well you do in a subject and just going to go work a job for 40 or 50 years.
Reese Brown (42:08.974)
right, not just being a cog in the machine, but or preparing, a lot of this to me sounds like we're preparing students for the past, not for the future, or even for the present, but not for the future. And it's like, well, by the time you're in the industry, it will have already moved forward at least somewhat. And I think that there's so much value in saying,
VIncent Andrews (42:12.45)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (42:20.043)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (42:28.929)
game.
Reese Brown (42:33.43)
we don't really know where the progress is gonna go, but we can help give you the tools and skills to help with that progress, to contribute to progress, as opposed to just checking boxes, being another gear that just spins and, you know, like you said, fills a role, does a job, because humans are so much more than that. You're so much more than just a carbon copy of what someone else can do. So I think that's really powerful.
VIncent Andrews (42:50.355)
Yep.
VIncent Andrews (43:01.294)
Yes. Just one second. Yes. Can I use your car and go pick up Bella? Yes. Where are your car keys? Oh, they're probably in my car already. Okay. Or they might be hanging up near the door. Do you know where that other car seat is? Um, no, I sold it already. Oh.
Reese Brown (43:03.169)
Um, no, you're good.
VIncent Andrews (43:23.558)
Okay, so he's on your call? Yes. Alright, thank you. Yep. Yeah, sorry.
Reese Brown (43:29.342)
No, no, you are all good. Awesome, okay. So shifting gears kind of one more time, but to really tie creativity back to how we make meaning.
Why do you think, I mean, obviously I buy into this and I believe in this wholeheartedly, but I would just love to hear you talk a little bit about why creativity is important and how it can help kids, but also adults, find more meaning and passion in their daily lives, or living a more creative life can help you discover more purpose. What do you think that looks like?
VIncent Andrews (44:12.15)
I think it's just so important because it allows you to continue to grow and it's like I said You don't get into this fixed perspective that I have to play the specific role as a mom or dad. I'm an employee and I just You do all this work to get to where you want to be and you essentially just I mean you exhaust yourself working for organizations up until retirement and eventually
Reese Brown (44:20.201)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (44:38.838)
For a lot of people, I mean, they may not even get to enjoy retirement, or they might be gone before they even reach retirement. So it's interesting that we spend so much of our lives.
Reese Brown (44:43.93)
Totally, yeah.
VIncent Andrews (44:47.966)
Kind of just trying to learn, like become more technically proficient at everything. So it's something that we're already doing that level of creativity. But like I told you, we have to we have to learn to ask those questions. We have to learn to give ourselves space to relax. We're not used to doing that. But for our general well-being, it's just going to allow us to not just get to a point where we feel like our tires are just spinning and we're not moving.
but we'll be able to see the adaptability of life and we can take what we learn in one area. And like I said, I talked about interdisciplinarity. We can continue to learn and grow new things. I think that's such a big thing that can be said.
especially when you consider like politics and all these types of things like There are so many people who learn one field and that's all they know and that's all they care about and that's the only reality That they see but when you're a more open-minded person who's interested in learning Everything that you can to really motivate your creativity in a lot of ways um It helps you to grow closer to other people. It helps you to be a better communicator
Reese Brown (45:33.807)
Oh yeah.
VIncent Andrews (46:00.846)
It helps to solve a lot of our social environmental cultural problems that we have when everybody's eager to learn more and to have conversations and to ask questions. We're bad at asking questions. We want to believe we always have the solution for everything and that's a problem.
Reese Brown (46:23.298)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, give me if this is a weird word, but that's really beautiful to me. That, you know, we can start at a young age giving kids and people the confidence to be curious and brave with asking questions. And I do think that, you know,
Even though I think our society tends to have a lot of respect for people that always have the answer, it's like, what about honoring the bravery of saying, I don't know the answer, but we can try things and figure it out. It's like, that is certainly what we need more of. So that is just very powerful. I would also love...
VIncent Andrews (47:00.394)
Yep.
VIncent Andrews (47:10.502)
And that's a powerful statement, I think, because imagine if you're the manager or supervisor of a place and you tell the people under you, like, I don't have all the answers and we're here together. We're going to make these decisions. Like, how often does somebody in leadership say that to the to the people that they're working with? It's like usually everybody's waiting for an answer of somebody above them. But empower people to make some of those decisions or be a part of those decisions. And you'll get a lot further. You'll have a lot better buy in.
Reese Brown (47:25.349)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (47:40.336)
within your organizations, they'll do better functionally and across the relation. The way that people work together will be a lot more proficient because, again, they'll be more open to the fact that they don't have all the answers and the solutions and they'll feel more empowered.
Reese Brown (47:54.566)
Totally.
Absolutely. So, to narrow this back in, what has creativity meant to you in your life, in your personal journey with living with passion and purpose? How has creativity helped you personally with that?
VIncent Andrews (48:13.814)
Yes, so my whole evolution towards creativity...
I think I've been creative throughout my whole life. I never really understood creativity until I took a creativity and a development class thinking around like 2015. I mean, I was doing my first master's in the humanities degree at Tiffin University. And I remember just opening my mind to so many things and I started to see the world in a little bit different of a way, but it wasn't until I actually finished up my MFA, my second master's.
that everything just kind of clicked. And I was doing my final presentation and I was kind of just talking about all my work. So I decided, hey, I'm gonna look back at all the work that I've done over the last 15 years and kind of show everyone my evolution. And it was interesting to see that...
The way that I've always worked is I would take something that I know and I would incorporate it with something new and you could see like this direct evolution of the work over those ten years.
Generally, you have artists who might do something specifically for a while and then they come up with an idea and do something completely different But it's interesting to have that experience where you can see that Hey, I can take this idea that I've been working on and I do that for a while But then I come up with a new idea a new concept that I just add to that and it continues to grow And I kind of realized like create creativity is this evolution
Reese Brown (49:39.963)
Mmm.
VIncent Andrews (49:46.77)
of the work that I was doing, but also in the way that I was navigating life at that point.
So I was originally in school for architecture and I was switching back and forth between art and architecture for a while. But then I had moved to New Zealand for a few years and I was trying to figure out how I would incorporate art into my life. So I had decided, okay, when I get back I'm going to join the military. And there's all these creative decisions that I made during that time that I was like, okay, I'm going to use these skills that I have to get to where I need to be. When I was in New Zealand, I was actually the head chef of this Italian restaurant.
which is something I had done when I was at around like a small little pizza place when I was at Notre Dame. So I was always constantly trying to like figure out how do I take the pieces of what I know and move on that and continue to move on that road towards success or reaching my telos in some sort of way. And I've always and I continue to be very much that way. I'll constantly evaluate What are my skills now? What do I need to learn?
Reese Brown (50:42.252)
Mm.
VIncent Andrews (50:51.442)
What do I need to, what steps can I take to move from here to there?
And that's very much why I'm so interested and passionate about showing kids what creativity is and showing teachers that it comes in every domain because I've seen it personally for myself. That's like, if we could teach kids, not that they just need to have necessarily a job and be creative, but once you develop these skills and you start to see life that way, it will make it a lot easier for you to navigate life and navigate success when you'll have challenges. You can figure out creative ways
it doesn't necessarily have to be the end of your dreams if something goes wrong.
Reese Brown (51:33.102)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think even just the idea of like when you think that it's the end it's like Like you said creativity is taking something that you know and adding something new to it It's just because one thing feels like it's finished Always add something new always surprise something you can always explore take another step It's like it
VIncent Andrews (51:51.149)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (51:56.79)
And when you start to see that as a challenge even, it's like you can look at it as like the end and something stopped me and it's game over and my dreams are dead. Or you can see it as this is a challenge and a problem that I can figure my way out of if I think about it. Yeah.
Reese Brown (52:04.484)
or eight.
Reese Brown (52:11.522)
Yeah, how do we pick it?
Yeah, totally. That is really, really powerful, I think. And I think it speaks to, again, the work that you do and the importance of continuing to practice it and encourage it, like you said, have these conversations, but also talk to the people that it's impacting and the people who are in power in these areas and really communicate the importance of this. So I think that is...
Just absolutely wonderful. Before we close out our conversation, is there anything that in light of what we've talked about or anything that you want to clear up, anything you want to clarify, anything you want to add, anything we didn't touch on that you would like to throw out there, anything at all?
VIncent Andrews (53:05.431)
Not much at all, but I'd say keep doing what you're doing and continue to.
Talk to different people and get different perspectives about different things. I'm sure the work that you're doing will evolve in a lot of ways that probably exceed your expectations just for the fact that you're talking to so many people and in many ways that's what creativity is about too. I'm sure your process will change over time of how you do things just because you'll be able to see what works and what doesn't work and what new ideas are out there.
Reese Brown (53:36.958)
Absolutely, totally. Well, my last question that I always ask every guest is just what is one word to describe how you're feeling right now?
VIncent Andrews (53:46.97)
I'm excited, I think.
Reese Brown (53:49.386)
I love that. That's great. Tell us why, tell us more.
VIncent Andrews (53:54.138)
I think just again having this opportunity to talk with you seeing how excited you are even about some of these ideas And even like I said the conversations I have with other people would a lot of times when I feel like In the middle of a PhD and you're exhausted and you're being a father and a husband and all these other things working as a teacher it's easy to get exhausted, but then you have these just these conversations like this and you just kind of realize like
Reese Brown (54:10.736)
Yeah.
VIncent Andrews (54:23.014)
It is something that is well needed change. It's something that I feel like a lot of people could easily get behind. And I'm excited for the possibilities of how it could impact students in the future if a lot of these types of initiatives start to roll.
Reese Brown (54:40.726)
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Well, since then, thank you so much again, your time for your expertise, your energy. This has been so informative and empowering for me personally. I'm sure it will be for plenty of listeners and I can't thank you enough. Absolutely. I will talk with you soon.
VIncent Andrews (54:59.754)
Yeah, thank you so much.