Reconciliation and Reconnecting Amid Climate Chaos with Leah Rampy
Reese Brown (01:31.32)
Leah, thank you so much again for being here and taking the time to discuss Earth and Soul with me. I am thrilled to be diving into this conversation with you.
Leah Rampy (01:50.268)
Thank you, thank you, Reese, and I'm so happy to be here with you. Thank you for inviting
Reese Brown (01:55.062)
Absolutely. My first question that I always like to ask just to set the tone for the conversation that we're going to have is what's one thing you're grateful for right
Leah Rampy (02:05.432)
Mm. Yeah. Well, I'm really happy to live in a place where in spite of the fact that it is so hot here right now that the plants are hanging in there. They're doing beautifully. We have a lot of native plants around our home. And this morning I was able to go out and take a picture of this huge, beautiful sunflower.
Reese Brown (02:32.968)
I love that. Sunflower is my favorite flower. one of my favorite poems is the Sunflower Sutra by Allen Ginsberg. So anytime I see a sunflower, hear it always feels like a beautiful little message to get a sunflower. So I love that. Yes, I would love that. We can include it on Instagram with posts and stuff. My second question to really break open this conversation is what is your story?
Leah Rampy (02:48.724)
great, I'll have to send you a picture.
Reese Brown (03:02.468)
Of course, it's a very broad question, but whatever, like you said earlier, wherever the spirit guides you, whatever you feel called to share in this moment is
Leah Rampy (03:12.32)
Thank you. Well, I'll try to not make it too long a story. You will know a lot of the story because you've read the book. And it is a book where I do share quite a bit of my own personal story as well as stories of other individuals and other beings. But I think a part of my story is my growing up in the middle of Kansas.
and being very connected to the land there, being a little kid who spent a lot of time outdoors. And my path has been varied. I've lived in a lot of places. I've had a lot of different careers and eventually have found my way back to those deep connections with the living world around me.
And so that is a homecoming in many ways, even though I'm not in the same land with the same beings. The idea of reconnecting with the land and reconnecting with the living world is a beautiful journey. But for me, it's also a journey that started out hard and went to a lot of my life spent being in my head. And I'm returning to heart.
Reese Brown (04:37.704)
Mm, that's so beautiful. What do you think it was that really sparked that drive for that return to heart for the word connection comes up a lot in the book and of course returning to this connection that we have with the natural living world around us. But what spurred wanting to reconnect to
Leah Rampy (05:01.746)
Sure. I think it was always in there. You know, even though I was spending a fair amount of my career in places that invited me to be indoors rather than out, there was always this desire to have a weekend or have a vacation, to be outside, to be with the trees, to be with the plants. So that was kind of a background. But I will say I don't think I listened very
to my instincts or to those heart callings. It was when I really became interested in and deeply concerned about climate change, first of all, and then biodiversity, ecosystem loss, and wondered how in the world do we help people be willing to make the kind of changes that we think are necessary. So what would that look like?
It occurred to me that we have to love the world. And in those days, I would have said we have to love the world to save it. Now, I think that sounds much more human centric than I want to be because it denies that incredible wisdom and capability and resilience and capacity.
that Earth has and really invites us to follow her as opposed to us to be taking the lead. But it was in that wondering, you know, what will it take for us to be willing to make those kinds of changes that led me on a personal journey, but also it was a collaborative journey because I was leading retreats and pilgrimages and fighting other people into this discussion.
And it just became increasingly clear that this deep listening and as you said, this deep connection was so important. Now I have to stop and say, of course, we're always connected. It is impossible for us to disconnect. We breathe the air. We are eating the plants. They are our cells. We
Leah Rampy (07:23.59)
drinking the water, the Potomac River is running in me. So that is impossible. But what I'm speaking of really is the way in which we seem to have forgotten that and speak and oftentimes act as if we are individuals separate, distinct and apart from each other and the rest of the world.
Reese Brown (07:53.548)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's this one epigraph that you use towards the beginning of the book from John Philip Newell, and I wrote it down because I just loved it. And he talks about how we have forgotten. And I think that is exactly what you're talking about, where we can never be truly disconnected from this because we are natural beings. are of Mother Earth. are
it necessitates that we are engaging with these things. But to do so with a certain type of awareness and gratitude for it is very different than, like you were saying, this human -centric dominance over as opposed to communion with. So John Philip Newell says that we've forgotten about this connection. And you talk about returning to this heart center and listening.
How can we tap back into that listening, into that remembrance to... Unforget, to remember, to reconnect with that innate sense of... Beingness with that kind of, the natural flow of everything.
Leah Rampy (09:08.893)
Yes. Well, it's such a great question, Reese. I think it's one of the questions that answers easily and lives hard. It's easy for me to say, and I really believe it, that when we set an intention to be more deeply connected, to listen more deeply, to tune our senses so that we are more aware, to open our hearts so that we have
heart wisdom that has a different kind of intelligence than our rational logical thinking brain. When we have that intention and then move into those spaces, the connection can come to us. We simply need to be there, open, present, connected, available.
and allow it to envelop us.
Leah Rampy (10:12.349)
When I say that though, I'm also realizing that for most of us, we live very busy lives. And our busyness and the thinking that we do about that and our way of leaning toward problem solving as a frequently ongoing mode of action, leaning into the future, pondering over what we've done in the past, the challenge.
that we have of being really here. it's just, you when I say being fully present, that is no mean feat. It's not what our culture is inviting us to do for the most part. You know, of course, I'm speaking of Western culture where, you know, many of us live. And of course, that's not true for everyone.
Reese Brown (10:49.548)
Absolutely.
Reese Brown (10:54.158)
Yes.
Reese Brown (11:02.498)
Right. Well, and I think that raises a really great point of the kind of cultural and societal considerations that could perhaps be the thing that's getting in the way of this remembrance and listening. And the title of your book, Earth and Sol, you discuss how it's not a book about climate chaos. It's how we live in the midst of it, which I think is just
beautifully said. But if I could dive a little bit into the climate chaos piece with you, because I do think it's important. What do you think has sparked that chaos? What is it that has gotten us to the point of disconnect, chaos, that we're now in this place? Is it Western culture? Is that a piece of it? I'm so bad at asking leading questions, but I would love to know your thoughts.
Leah Rampy (12:00.456)
It's okay, lead away. Well, yes, I mean, I think it is the culture as we have come to know it that invites us to see humans as separate, more powerful over and above. I don't know how far back we need to go with this and, you know, maybe we will never fully pinpoint, but we certainly know there are.
conversations that we've had about Descartes, for instance, and that kind of spirit and soul is separate from, know, the human is closest to God. And so the human is superior and animals have no feelings. So they perfectly fine in doing horrific, horrific experiments on animals, you know, I mean, so
We know that was there. think it certainly goes back further than that. have. I'm not an expert on this, but I've read about different points in time where there was an alternative voice that held sway for just a few, you know, a few decades, perhaps. But then we came back to this idea that humans are superior to.
have that deep wisdom. And of course it serves us. It serves us well to do that because then we can own land, we can see it as resources, we can decide that we want to use it in whatever way we want to use it for our own desires. And it's a short distance once we see land that way to also seeing the people who are living there in that same way as Lesser Than Amitav Ghosh.
says that whole idea of classifying individuals as as brutes or uncivilized was another way to dehumanize and therefore hold dominion over. So it serves us in the sense that it allows us to keep living an unexamined life in a way. And it's a short distance, I think, from
Leah Rampy (14:24.344)
othering land to othering any individuals or any communities that are unlike us. And, you know, we can look at where we decide to build power plants or where we decide to put our roads. You know, this becomes our climate injustice that we see showing up over and over again. So
This othering leads us, I think, to this false sense that it is serving us.
and I think it's breaking our hearts.
And it is exactly back to the question, just to see if I can go full circle and actually answer a question. I wonder around a little here, but I think it is coming back to, you know, what's making this idea that there's climate chaos? Well, we're not, the chaos itself is coming out of the way in which we have treated
Reese Brown (15:08.964)
Absolutely.
Leah Rampy (15:36.422)
the living world around us, the way in which we destroy ecosystems for what we think is our own benefit. We've drained swamps and we hold that up as if that's a good thing. We plow up prairies to plant crops. We cut down forests to grow food for cattle. I mean, we could go on and on about this. That's causing our climate chaos because we are
seeing that it is all connected, that every time we perpetrate one of those actions, it's intertwined with the rest of the living world.
Reese Brown (16:19.576)
Yeah. And it is inherently doing it to ourselves as well because of that connection, right? And even if you don't see that immediate impact, it is doing it. And I think one thing, one, please wander wherever you want to go. No need to be beholden to my questions. I love it. Yes. But I think in your choice of words with it's breaking our hearts is so poignant.
Leah Rampy (16:25.767)
sure.
Leah Rampy (16:35.34)
Thank you.
Reese Brown (16:49.47)
in also the way you're talking about us becoming disconnected with heart wisdom, right? And so in it breaking our hearts, is also how do you heal that? Well, it's a return to that heart wisdom and it's much easier to numb yourself to that break if you're in your head, if you're in this logic, if you're in that sense of I am self and you are other and this power dynamic as opposed to a collaboration.
And you have a beautiful, beautiful quote in the book that says, only when broken open will our hearts be large enough to hold the beauty and wonder. And I would just love to hear you talk a little bit more about this process of breaking open and almost in this pain to purpose kind of sense at this point, why do you think it's necessary for this break to happen?
Leah Rampy (17:48.508)
Sure. I think our hearts breaking open is a natural result of us being fully present and open to what is just as it is. So some of the things that we've talked about when we look at the forests around us and we look how those have been clear cut so that we can plant a mono crop in order to grow trees for
We use maybe one of the most, feels one of the most tragic purposes to me, to grow trees for toilet paper, which is where a lot of the boreal forests in Canada are going. So when we see that happen, it's really difficult to, and I use the term bear witness, it's very difficult to bear witness to that. It is so much easier.
to stay in that head space and rationalize that that is an other, that is for our own intents and purposes. Well, what are you going to do? So I get that. I I find myself caught in these kinds of webs all the time. Plastic for me is a great example of where I really don't want to use plastic. I know where it comes from. I understand what it's doing. And
how you break out of that can just be mind -bending. then because we, either because the pain is great or because the complexity feels so challenging to us, we then say, I want to just look away. You know, I'm going to bury my head in the sand. I'm going to cover my eyes. I'm going to distract myself with something else. I'm going to numb myself.
I'm going to numb myself to what is because what I look at is too painful. My instinct, my request, my hope is that not all the time and not without ceasing, yet much of the time what is important for us to do is to look with eyes wide open at those places we love.
Leah Rampy (20:08.018)
that are being changed by our collective action, that are being destroyed oftentimes by our collective action. To see that, to allow ourselves to feel the grief, to apologize when it's necessary, to protect when we can, to support in whatever way we feel called, whatever it is to see that and then
because our hearts are open, because we are not numbed, then we also see that there is great beauty and awe and wonder and magic and joy alongside of and even within those places where there are loss. And so it is in connecting to both of those, I think that we are more fully alive.
know, numbing is not a way to be fully alive. And it's such a temptation in these edge times to want to dull ourselves because we are not really as well equipped as we might be to know how to handle pain and loss. We don't often have the rituals. We don't necessarily have the community structures.
Maybe we don't even have a community with which we can grieve. Maybe there's nobody else who would understand at the level you understand the loss of that forest. And so without that, we find it increasingly difficult to hold all of that. We're not meant to grieve alone, really.
Reese Brown (21:53.964)
Yeah, and it can be a lonely process if it feels as if you were the only one or it feels as though you're the only one embarking on this remembrance journey, right? He used a phrase that I want to make sure we get a definition out for our listeners, edge times. I really love the use of this throughout your book because it feels so poignant and also
Leah Rampy (22:06.268)
Yes. Yes.
Reese Brown (22:24.396)
It's not end times, it's this moment of drastic change and that just feels more on point to me because I think so often fear can color all of these things and so we can turn to like apocalyptic kind of thinking and language. sorry, now I'm rambling, but I would love to hear more about edge times
Leah Rampy (22:46.128)
No, no, good. Yeah.
Reese Brown (22:50.552)
what that term means and what it means that we are in edge times right
Leah Rampy (22:56.546)
So it's interesting that you bring that up. It's a word or phrase that often people ask about. And it was part of what I actually wanted in the title of my book. But my editor said, people won't know what you're talking about. And I sort of think that's true, but I also think it's not true.
you know, that there's a there's not just a skip over. That's a really confusing term. I think there's a way in which we go like, yeah, that is what it is, even if we don't know exactly what that is. Yeah. So the way that I have kind of described it, the way I think about it, I have a picture in my mind of of an edge, particularly a coastal cliff.
Reese Brown (23:31.053)
It feels intuitive.
Leah Rampy (23:47.288)
And it came out of an experience that I had when I was traveling with my husband and he is an edge man. mean, as are my children, they like to walk up to the edge of giant cliffs and it just makes me crazy. am not, I'm like, I'm afraid of heights. I don't like that. And of course I'm scared to death of what they're doing. But in this particular case, we were on an island in the Hebrides.
looking out into the vast ocean. And here was this huge cliff and down below are enormous rocks. The waves were crashing in over the rocks. You could also tell that they had eaten out a part of the land. So you weren't really able to tell how close you could go to that cliff edge and be safe. There's no guardrails. There's no you're just standing there looking out to sea.
And yet the land around us was so beautiful. There were these little daisies and buttercups and absolutely gorgeous and the sky was blue. You had an illusion of being safe. And yet again, you could see where the land had been worn away. And so this just struck me as a way that we are on the edge that
You know, we are on a place where firm footing is not guaranteed, where much of what we have known is no longer available. I mentioned how hot it was here. Well, you know, this is the new way in which we will live. So we can't go back to the kinds of summers or the kinds of winters.
that we had in the area that I live in or the area you live in. The past is gone. And yet what story may be emerging is not yet clear. We don't know what it looks like. Another way of thinking about this is to think about threshold. Standing on that threshold, the past is gone. But while we have these wonderful poets and artists
Leah Rampy (26:09.776)
individuals who are bringing us lots of wisdom, we can't quite see how the future will be laid out. I don't know who said it, but somebody said, you know, the future is made by walking. And I think that is it's not like we're going to look for a path and see this path clearly laid out. We're going to have to take a step and another step. So that's what I mean by edge. The other way you can think about it is Zicotone.
know, the idea where two ecosystems come together and what is in between is kind of a combination of each, but it's its own distinct place. And animals, birds, insects can come from one to another, but it's not exactly home. It's a different place. It has some possibility. It has risk.
Reese Brown (27:05.058)
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. really is that the image that you painted is like the illusion of safety, but still knowing that it is unknown, that we don't know. And really reckoning with those two different things. I love this phrase, the future is made by walking. And you have actively chosen to walk a very deliberate
through these edge times and not just in the way you're choosing to conduct your life, but in the way you are choosing to encourage and educate and open up awareness for others. What motivated that? Because I think there are a lot of people who are like, well, I'm gonna change my independent behaviors and do what I can, but you've committed your life to this work and
talking about it and spreading this information.
Talk to me about that choice.
Leah Rampy (28:10.738)
Wow, thank you. That's a really great question. I've not been asked the question quite like that. it feels very touching for you to say that. I feel so drawn personally to this question of how do we live fully alive, deeply connected in these
edge times. I don't think we can go back. I do not think the future will be easy. I do think that there will be many, many experiences that we will have of grief and loss. So what do we do? How do we live? know,
So the risk you see, I think, that many people have is just to throw up their hands and say, is no, you know, we're all doomed, right? mean, climate change is gonna take us all. There will be no humans. We might as well, and then you can go however you want to. We might as well just ignore it. We might as well just, you know, live a happy life and keep consuming. mean, there's no need to do anything.
Leah Rampy (29:32.097)
So I think the other is to ignore it and say, that's just not true. Let's deny it. And none of those work for me. So if they don't work, then what does? Right. So I just felt drawn to this conversation and feel I feel like it's such an important one for us to have together. So it was really important for me to write this book as a way to help. Discern more.
about what I felt and what I thought and what was present for me. Some of what I kind of knew and some I didn't know I knew. And then sometimes I was just like, I have no idea. I just have to stop and walk away because I don't know what this answer is here. And I would wander around and maybe I would read a few things and I would write in my journal and then I would wait for something to be given.
you know, for something to show up and maybe it came in the form of, you know, a tree, maybe it came in the form of somebody else's writing, maybe it came in the form of an aha when I was, you know, when my mind was elsewhere. So was trying to take myself out of my busy mind. I've just found it to be such a rich conversation with others, particularly people who are working so hard.
in the field of climate change and who are just really giving their all. so to be in conversation with them about how we remain committed and hopeful and alive and a contributor to a future has been so
Reese Brown (31:04.014)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (31:22.636)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, and I think what you're saying is really important. It's being an active contributor, right? I'm not going to be passive in this process.
I think there is a certain duty that you feel called to once you are, for lack of a better term, awakened to this, right? When you start listening and once you start remembering, there is a certain, you call it the clarion call, that how can you walk away, right? It would be putting our head in the sand. One thing that keeps coming up throughout this conversation and that I've
researching a lot recently actually is this idea of grief and loss and how walking this path means we're going to be facing the grief of all that we have lost in our relationship with Mother Earth and our, you know, ancestry heritage relationship to the physical world as human beings. How do you reckon with your own personal grief and loss in this?
realm. What does that look like for you and why has that become such a poignant part of this heartbreaking heart opening process?
Leah Rampy (32:46.534)
Yeah. Well, gosh, you know, that's a good question and a hard question, right? I think we all have that, you know, it's not unique to me. Everybody is facing some sense of loss in these times. Now, we always do. I mean, we face them personally. Life is always changing. The the depth and breadth of this existential threat.
is so great in these times that that makes this unique. Certainly civilizations and communities have felt devastating loss over over generations and generations and many still do. And I think I said somewhere that if we haven't yet, then we really are among the privileged because it will come for all of us, whether that's in the form
know, floods or fire or whatever it's surrounding us. So you ask a more personal question though. You ask the question of how do I deal with it? I don't know that I deal with it any better, put that in quotes, whatever that is, than anybody else. You know, it hurts, it's painful. I was reading about the intense heat. This was a couple months ago, the intense heat in Mexico.
Reese Brown (34:02.818)
Right.
Leah Rampy (34:15.426)
and these small kind of infant size monkeys that were just falling out of the tree, many of them dead because they were so dehydrated and they were so, you know, I don't know, it's just so sad. It was just so sad, maybe because they were small. It also, I don't know what it was, but there was something, something so compelling.
about looking at the pictures of people holding those small animals. Well, what do you do? mean, you just have to let it hurt, right? I mean, there's no way out of that. I will say that I am really lucky to live in a community where I have other people I can be in conversation with who...
have similar values and a similar kind of understanding.
So to be able to talk about it is important. For me though, the best, I don't want to say antidote because it's not like you're making it go away, but the best companion maybe are the trees. To go with other beings and trees are usually my place to go. To go with the trees and
sit there and to be in the presence of these living beings that have so much wisdom and have generations upon generations faced incredible loss and you know they stand. They have so much I think to teach us metaphorically as well as literally. So I think we have to remember if we are in a community where there are rituals I think rituals are really
Reese Brown (36:04.632)
Yeah. Yeah.
Leah Rampy (36:12.752)
If we're in a place where we have people with whom we can talk or we can reach out or maybe, you know, like you do, you can bring people into a conversation. I mean, that's a real gift. And there's almost always some being around us that can also be a soul friend in this process.
Reese Brown (36:30.582)
Yeah, yeah, I love that, a soul friend. I think one piece that, I mean, of course, I'm naturally tied to this question because the podcast is called Making Meaning and that is kind of the piece of all of this that I am perennially drawn back to. But within this concept of grief, there's, of course, the five stages that Elizabeth Kubler -Ross originally
proposed, but she had a student named David Kessler who proposed that the sixth stage is making meaning and making meaning out of that grief. So I would like to know if you, within this kind of process of being with it and kind of walking alongside your grief.
Do you make meaning out of it? How do you make meaning out of it? What does that piece of the process look like as well?
Leah Rampy (37:32.23)
Hmm, that's so interesting. My first
Leah Rampy (37:42.428)
when as you were asking that question was to, to guard against the idea that we're going to say that, I don't know, it's okay that a forest was lost because we're learning something from it, you know? So, and I know that's not what you're suggesting when you talk about making meaning. It is something we've heard in our culture.
Reese Brown (38:00.226)
Right, right.
Reese Brown (38:11.106)
Yes.
Leah Rampy (38:11.148)
before where people say it was for the best. So that strikes me as too simplistic and wishful in its thinking. The hard part of making meaning, I think, is that the loss often shows us more clearly what we love.
Reese Brown (38:20.162)
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (38:35.149)
Mmm.
Leah Rampy (38:36.58)
And so it is in that loss that we become aware of how important that particular being was to us and the role that that being played in our lives. And it may be too late to do anything about that, but that is where we go back to what I was saying before. kind of is a teaching in that way. It is a learning that we have of the depth and breadth of our connections.
that were there even when we didn't realize it. So I do think that we can make changes in honor of, in memory of our grief and our loss. And we can name that and hold it in ways that acknowledge our sadness and still offer possibility.
for joy, connection, beauty in what evolves from that place.
Reese Brown (39:45.986)
Hmm. Thank you for sharing that and thank you for clarifying at the beginning as well. I do think that there is a tendency to I tend to think of it as like a false meaning making where it's well everything happens for a reason, you know this Her in it's very Like we've all been there when you're sharing with your friend and something horrible has happened to you and they're
well, at least blah, blah, blah, or it could always be worse. And that feels horrible to hear that it's so invalidating. But when you can step back into this place of how do we move forward? How do we take that step into the future? How do we walk into the future in a way that is informed by the grief and what we have lost? I think that's a really insightful thing. Something just occurred to you. Please go.
Leah Rampy (40:18.12)
Right. Right.
Leah Rampy (40:41.372)
Well, yes, I'm just adding to what you're saying because I think what you said is so important and not to be driving towards that, you know, not to be like, how do I, how, all right, what am I going to do now? Like I, you know, how can I to let that come to you if that makes sense? So we're not rushing our grief, you know, so we're not saying, okay, I've just, you know, I just have this whole mountain top removed
you know, I'm sitting here looking out my window and this has been a, you know, a place we've known and loved for generations. And now we have these enormous equipment coming in. Okay, so where do I go? What do I do? You know, I think to just allow ourselves to be with it and especially a loss like that, I say that because I live in West Virginia, not because I personally know that kind of a loss, but to know that that is, that grief doesn't go anywhere.
Reese Brown (41:28.728)
Mm -hmm.
Leah Rampy (41:40.06)
I mean, it will always be with us. So it's not a replacement. It's an and. But that you're gonna stay with that grief. doesn't go anywhere. You're not gonna just get over it. You may get to the place where there's an and.
Reese Brown (42:04.4)
Yeah, I think that's so important and also in this, you know, we've talked about facing the grief and allowing your heart to be broken open and so many of us want to not listen and put our heads in the sand. I think there is also sometimes this tendency to say, okay, I see it, that's really uncomfortable, what do I do? I want to, our fixer turns on, right? And it's, what can I do with this now?
Leah Rampy (42:30.725)
Exactly.
Reese Brown (42:33.812)
And like you said, sometimes that answer just doesn't come to you and you have to wait. You have to pause. have to let. And sometimes for you, it's in the trees. It's in someone else's writing. It's returning to that. But I think that's really powerful to honor the loss and grief, not just in ourselves that we're processing and feeling, but to rush past it is also
Leah Rampy (42:46.312)
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (43:02.968)
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong or if you, I would love to hear your thoughts about this potentially remaking a similar mistake of not honoring.
Leah Rampy (43:09.65)
Mm.
Exactly. Exactly. Because so often that, you know, some of our most personal losses come because of our perhaps even great intentions, but our ignorance or our inability to listen, you know, so that we think we know what would be best for land around us that has been harmed in some way and it's no longer.
whatever it is, the valuable prairie, the viable rich ecosystem that it once was. So then we set out to make a particular change because we're problem solving. Right. And because we think that will help us feel better about it, you know, and we don't pause to know, you know, is this what is the land want? What would the land do here?
Reese Brown (43:50.605)
Yeah.
Leah Rampy (44:08.748)
the ecosystem that it once knew is has been destroyed. So perhaps just going back and trying to plant everything that was once there isn't what the land is trying to do at this point because its community has been lost. So that idea of, so tricky is that Reese because you know our
Reese Brown (44:25.762)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (44:37.446)
you know, our sense of human exceptionalism and problem solving so gets in our way over and over again. And our, our head game that says, me fix it is often because then I will feel better. You know? And so what if we're not ready to feel better? What if you just have to sit and cry over
Reese Brown (44:45.963)
Mm -hmm.
Reese Brown (44:55.576)
Yeah. Yeah.
Leah Rampy (45:04.936)
prairie in whatever way that shows up for you until the prairie invites you to do something else. Or maybe it isn't about you at all. Maybe the next step is not yours to do.
Reese Brown (45:21.058)
Yeah, wow. Wow, wow, wow. I wanna sit with that for a moment. Maybe the next step isn't ours to do. That is really powerful. And kind of along this thought, because we've been sitting in this space of grief and honoring the loss, which I think is important and I'm really glad we have, but you also talked about possibility.
Thinking about this next step, not being ours to do, but also this word of possibility and taking this path into the future. What comes up when you think about possibility?
Leah Rampy (46:05.306)
Well, I guess the first thing that comes up is just to play a little further along with the conversation we were having. That, you know, Earth has agency. Earth has wisdom. Earth and so many of the beings that are around us have been here far, far longer than we have. And, you know, they know how to heal. They know how to support each other.
Reese Brown (46:13.316)
Please.
Mm -hmm.
Leah Rampy (46:35.98)
We're learning so much about the collaborative way in which birds, insects, plants exist and how collaborative they are. So the idea that I have to figure it all out is not the greatest possibility. The greatest possibility exists in acknowledging
that we live in this amazing world that has so much capacity and that if I am really lucky and if I listen really hard and if I open my heart instead of my mind, that just maybe I will be invited to step alongside and help in some way.
So my trust is in what I don't know. This is where I find hope. If I have to look for hope in all of the capacity I have to solve problems, I think it's fairly limited. If I do believe I have something that's mine to do, just like you have something that is yours to do, that's the sole journey that I talk about, right?
Reese Brown (47:49.462)
Leah Rampy (47:59.366)
so that we have the soul calling and it is a gift we've been given and we are invited to share it with the world. I am not capable of solving climate chaos, biodiversity loss, ecosystem loss, et cetera, writ large. I suspect that many of us will be called to a small stage where we're offering our gift, you know, that it will be pretty close to home.
yay for the people who are called to a broader one and who have that gift and calling to speak to and interact in a larger stage. Of course, that would be true. If that's not us, then I think we don't have to despair because that's my trust then is that I am doing mine.
you were doing yours and this amazing earth is doing hers and so that's where I think the hope is is that we support in whatever way we can the way that earth is dreaming about reforming and reshaping herself and we do the very best we can to support
Reese Brown (49:19.252)
that that's so powerful and also it ties back into the the idea that the earth has her own agency and like removing that like you were saying the human exceptionalism from it that and even the kind of selfhood exceptionalism that we can sometimes have when we think in our minds and we get this individualism flavor to well what is my
What is my journey? What is, what am I supposed to achieve? And it's the mindset switch to what are we supposed to achieve? What are we supposed to do to support as opposed to achieve too? It's that kind of complete flip between dominion over versus communion with, and that is just a continual reminder, I think for us all, cause I know I fall victim to that probably.
every hour of every day. Yeah.
Leah Rampy (50:17.356)
We all do. We all do. Well, you know, we're in a world of paradox. And so we have to keep finding that and remembering it and smiling about it because it is kind of funny, you know, so that in going in that deeper, deeper sense of who we are and reconnecting to our the depths of our soul, you know, there's also this what I say is an outward journey to connect, reconnect, reclaim our connections to the living world around us. And the paradox is those really aren't separate journeys.
Reese Brown (50:47.032)
Mmm, yeah.
Leah Rampy (50:47.398)
You know, they really are one in the same that as you go into more of who you are, you see how you are more connected. As you connect more, you see more clearly who you are in light of that. That is one journey. And the same is true, you know, when we think about our grief and our joy, it's not an oar, they live together. You know, I use that Mobius strip of it's all a part of our lives.
We don't tend to just walk around with one single emotion. You know, we're much more complex than that. And these all belong in the, you know, in a life that is open and connected and available to what is. So there's all these paradox. It's my work is important. Your work is important. It matters. And it's not all there is. So, yeah.
Reese Brown (51:42.218)
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I know. I think that's so beautiful. And I love the idea too of like this soul journey is not separate from it is with, right? And that's really the thrust, the thesis of your book. And you have a Thomas Berry quote that you use that says, the divine communicates to us through the natural world. And I personally believe that the soul journey
intimately connected to the divine and getting in touch with our purpose and remembering who we are as a part of the natural world is innately a spiritual experience for me. But I would love to know for you what that's like and what the divine means for you personally in doing this work and I guess kind of in light of all we've talked about.
Leah Rampy (52:39.826)
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, in the front of the book, I said, I have trouble with words, you know, because I think of I use different words for divine wisdom, holy, sacred love, all of that, because I don't know words big enough to talk about this sort of immense love. I'll just use it for now with immense divine. So
It is this sense of connecting deeply to these gifts we have been given our soul and how our soul meets the soul of other beings and how our soul is held within this web of beings, this interconnected sacredness of which we can never be separated and of which we don't exist.
nothing exists without being in relationship. And so, so the divine is within all those threads of the relationship and holding it all. So it's within out over almost like every proposition. know, it's like all the prepositions is what it is. And I think what it's also helpful for me is to occasionally spend just a little bit of time with that reminder of
Reese Brown (53:55.086)
Mm -hmm.
Leah Rampy (54:04.442)
you know, the incredible evolution of this cosmic journey.
Because all of that as well, mean, this deep time in which we have had this amazing, incredible journey that's resulted in these beautiful little beings of mosses and dragonflies and, you know, hummingbirds and you and, you know, all of this that
connected in deep time and space as well as in the now. And of course, we're not the end, right? I mean, we somehow think we're at the end. It's our human centric view again. We've come to the end of the journey and here we are the manifestation of all of this as me. So we have to remember that we are somewhere along the way, which is also to me, that's also part of the
Reese Brown (54:46.53)
Mmm.
Reese Brown (55:01.572)
Yup.
Leah Rampy (55:08.508)
that I have an invitation, I think, to offer my gift for the sake of a world that may have more, maybe more deeply attuned to deep connection and mutual thriving and mutual wellbeing. And that's what I think we lay those stepping stones, we hope.
Reese Brown (55:36.557)
Yeah.
Leah Rampy (55:36.602)
may not see them in our lifetimes. It doesn't mean they're not worthy.
Reese Brown (55:42.752)
Absolutely. Excuse me just a moment. I'm going to have to clear my throat. Give me just
Reese Brown (55:52.814)
Sorry about that, I'm getting over a cold. But going back to even the very beginning of what you said of all of these different words, I'm a big word nerd and I have to agree with you that I similarly use this vast expanse of different words to talk about this thing, this it that we all kind of feel in
connected to and connected with and of and from and towards all the prepositions, right? But if you said, I think it's because I don't know a word big enough and I'll just throw out there. I don't think there is a word big enough that, and I don't think there ever will be. And I think everything that you said after is the beautiful example of why, because it is just that interconnected piece that is
Leah Rampy (56:35.954)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (56:50.424)
perhaps the lived experience of it as opposed to the discussions are great and this is enriching and enlightening and all those beautiful things, but also it is so vastly different than being in an oven with as well. To kind of begin to round out our discussion, which has been so fulfilling and lovely and enlightening.
I want to make sure that there's space for anything we didn't get to, anything that you want to clarify, anything you want to return to, or anything that you feel is missing from the conversation. This is space for you to add that in, discuss it, return to it, if there's anything, space for you to lead the way here.
Leah Rampy (57:39.922)
Thank you. Well, what you said just provoked something else for me. So feel like we could do this for another day or so. But what I wanted to say with regard to the conversation you're just bringing up, the words fail us. And we know that. And our understanding will of necessity fail us. So I'm really clear that part of the reason I love this conversation.
Reese Brown (57:47.552)
Yeah.
Leah Rampy (58:07.866)
is because I like that growing and stretching and pushing the edges and bringing my conversation alongside of yours and you offering ways to help me push the boundaries of what I think I know. So I'm grateful for that. And still, and still, we're trying to do it with words. So ultimately, it is a heart journey.
right because the heart has that incredible wisdom that is you know that is able to intuit.
what's beyond words for us. so as, you know, it's ironic, here we are, you know, podcasters and speakers and writers and yeah, yeah. And we're gonna like, yeah, but words aren't enough, but they aren't enough, they aren't enough. And so I think there's also this opportunity and that's what I think we can get when we go out into the living world around us to go out without words.
Reese Brown (58:58.962)
Right.
Right?
Leah Rampy (59:14.982)
You know, I love the Merlin app and listening to the birds as much as anybody. I think it's terrific. And I think it helps us sharpen some of our awareness. And I also think there's a time to let go of trying to name every plant, trying to name every tree, to just let all of that intellectual knowledge fall away and to sit with the beings around us with.
a gaze, seeing what wants to come to us with a gentle curiosity, with a question maybe if we have to put something in words of what is your life like? But mostly just a being. I have done that, I've invited that so many times on different retreats and pilgrimages
You know, when people sit with a small space for an extended period of time, they always start out, I can just almost guarantee it, with the first 10 minutes of assurance that there's absolutely nothing there to look at, know, that their space is really boring and, you know, but it is amazing. It is amazing if you stay with just any little piece of the living world for a period of time.
there are beings there beyond what you can imagine for one thing. But there's also incredible beauty and life, know, abundant and vibrant and connected life. So out of my head into my into my heart, right, being in that open space. I think that's the invitation for all of us really. So we might as well say that for anybody listening to that that's our invitation for them to go outdoors, take
Reese Brown (01:01:08.588)
Yes.
Leah Rampy (01:01:10.96)
you know, take a space, sitting, standing, whatever, lying down, whatever you want, a small space and stay with it. And then go back time and time again to see what is being given to you that offers delight.
Reese Brown (01:01:28.92)
Hmm. Yes, absolutely. don't even, I think that you said it perfectly. I don't want to add anything to it, but I love it. Well, final question before we kind of wrap everything up is just what is one word to describe how you're feeling right now with the understanding that words fail us, but something to add a little bow.
Leah Rampy (01:01:37.499)
You
Leah Rampy (01:01:56.05)
your wife
Reese Brown (01:01:57.526)
Hmm.
Leah Rampy (01:01:59.282)
Yeah. Thank you.
Reese Brown (01:02:01.956)
Thank you so much, Leah. I so appreciate, one, your time, energy, this conversation, but also the work you're doing, the work you're inviting other people to do, the reminder that your work offers all of us. And for anyone that wants to dive into Earth and Soul or more of Leah's work, everything will be linked down below wherever you are listening or watching. So you will be able to go to Leah's website.
order the book, and E and everything will be down there for everyone's information. Is there anything else that you would like to add, Leah?
Leah Rampy (01:02:39.206)
Well, just to say thank you, Reese. mean, what a delight it's been to be in conversation with you and say thank you so much for the work that you're doing to bring these kinds of conversations into the world. So I hope a lot of people find and follow your podcast.
Reese Brown (01:02:56.084)
thank you so much. I so appreciate that. ditto. Again, words failing me, but it's the perfect representation of that. Awesome. Thank you so much.
Leah Rampy (01:03:02.414)
Hahaha.
Leah Rampy (01:03:10.076)
Thank you.