Reese Brown (03:54.2)

Nicole, thank you so much for being here with me today and joining me for this conversation. I am truly, truly so excited to have you on the podcast and to be here with you this morning.

Coco Joy (04:19.729)

I'm thrilled to be here and I really appreciate this time with you and the opportunity to chat and dive in. So thank you.

Reese Brown (04:26.1)

Absolutely. Of course, of course, of course. The first question I like to ask just to try and set a good note for the conversation we're about to have is what is one thing you're thankful for right

Coco Joy (04:41.739)

so I back in February had back surgery, major back surgery. So I've been on a medical leave and I'm really grateful for it actually, not just for the physical healing, but or yes, and for the time I've been able to just really enjoy life and in some ways live my best life and spend time with my kids and

I don't know, rest and find that feeling of sort of groundedness. So I am so grateful for this time off. Yeah.

Reese Brown (05:19.108)

Mmm.

Reese Brown (05:23.746)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that that is so important. And like you said, rest is so rare to find it. We live in such a fast paced society and a hurry up and wait. so even though of course having serious surgery is scary, it's also the silver lining that you get to have that little piece of something in there too.

Coco Joy (05:52.851)

Definitely, definitely. Yeah, it's been a great experience.

Reese Brown (05:56.792)

Second question to just kind of open up and we'll see where it takes us is what is your story? Obviously a big question. Whatever you feel called to share in this moment is perfect. Yes, whatever feels right is right.

Coco Joy (06:15.667)

my story. which if you want the juicy story, no, I'm kidding. You want the juicy story. Okay, so I'll just start talking and see what happens, but because it's, you know, there's the work life and they intersect and yeah. So I currently live in Massachusetts. I've been here since 99.

Reese Brown (06:22.231)

I want the juicy story.

Reese Brown (06:30.594)

love

Coco Joy (06:44.477)

went to school in North Carolina, and I was born and raised in San Diego, which is my home and where I dream of being again someday. But my life has been very full and has taken many twists and turns. I'm currently, I have a J -O -B, but I also have my consulting and coaching business.

which I love and is around joy. And maybe we'll get to that in a little bit. I moved here to take a job and ended up staying here for, like I said, many years since 99. I got married, had children, and did a lot of different career things. I like to say I have a varied and colorful skill set

You know, most of my life I've tried to figure out how it all fits together and trying to figure out, I want to say my purpose, but like, what am I supposed to do with my career? And I was also a stay at home mom part of those years and balanced some work with that. But through it all, up until this point, everything I've done has led me here.

the skills, the lessons, the challenges, the triumphs to this point. And I'm sure there's more to come. But at this point, I feel very wise in a lot of ways. But like I said, some certainly some more lessons, lifelong learner over here. now I'm currently, like I said, I'm doing coaching and it's focused around joy.

in finding joy or experiencing joy in life and work. And that's pretty broad, but I find that I work a lot with people who are in transitions of life events and struggling with identity as far as like, do I do next and what's my purpose?

Coco Joy (09:01.735)

And also, I've also found a little bit of success in leadership mindset and helping folks that are in manager, CEO, C -suite levels, roles, just shift a little bit and, you know, better ways to lead teams and people or themselves. I have this belief that I think we all are leaders and so we all could use

leadership mindset and all the things we do, whether it's we're communities, families, whatnot. So those are my specialties at the moment. We'll see how those transition. But so I'm still in Massachusetts. I am actually divorced also. I had a big life transition, so I've had a lot of personal experience with big changes in life and, you know, through it all.

there is joy in all of it. And I kind of, you know, I like the analogy of the lotus, you know, the lotus grows in the Merc. And I think joy is also created in the Merc. I don't think joy is happiness. I think joy is, well, it's a lot of things, but I think it's in the journey and it's not the result.

Reese Brown (10:01.11)

Yes, absolutely.

Reese Brown (10:28.405)

One of my questions that I wanted to dive into was how would you define joy? And then of course he took us right there, which is so beautiful. And I do love this, the image of the lotus flower, like in the dirt, in the grime, in the rough and tumble of daily life is where joy blooms. Why do you think that is?

Because I have to agree with you that it is different from happiness. Happiness is that fleeting, like good feeling we get, right? But joy is this long -term commitment to choosing joyfulness, right? Why does it arise throughout the journey? And is there anything else besides that kind of lotus flower image that you would add to your definition of joy?

Coco Joy (11:05.298)

Yes.

Coco Joy (11:16.997)

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for that. That's a beautiful image. That's it. That's joy. So joy is in the journey because you said it. It's a choice or a mindset shift or a noticing. don't and it doesn't have to be this grand event or experience. It can be very small.

And I think it's tied. You know, some people experience joy in different ways, but when people are stuck and are like feeling, not feeling joyful in their journey, one of the things that helps us just change the station, so to speak, in the mind is just gratitude. And you started off with gratitude. I think that's big, even if it's just a moment to pause and be like, okay.

this sucks right now that I'm going through. What is something? It could be as simple as like, I'm grateful I took a shower today. Like it just can be super simple. So, know, I think it's a choice. I think it's when, when you find the joy in the Merc, it helps you

Reese Brown (12:24.344)

Yeah.

Coco Joy (12:41.789)

continue on too. So there's some motivating push or assurance of that you're going to be okay, hopefulness. You know, all these things are tied to it. And I do think I've had moments in my own life where I've just been joyful. Like there wasn't, you know, there wasn't this contemplative piece to it or like, let me pause and be gratitude. It's just been

I feel joyful and my life sucks right now. And I don't know, maybe that's a muscle that we develop. Maybe that's something that we have to build our physical muscles. It's a muscle we develop. I think some might be set up more for that naturally and others might need a little bit more guidance in

Reese Brown (13:30.028)

Right. What?

Reese Brown (13:39.14)

Totally. One of the words used in describing joy was noticing, right? That sometimes it does arise and it's there. We're just not paying attention to the fact that it's there or we're maybe moving so fast that we're just not looking at it. In those moments of noticing that you've had in your life where it's like, okay, we are in the mark. We are going through it right

Coco Joy (13:55.826)

Yeah.

Coco Joy (14:06.235)

Hahaha!

Reese Brown (14:08.108)

And yet, I'm still noticing joy. What do you think it was that allowed you to notice it in those moments?

Coco Joy (14:23.244)

hmm, that's a really good question.

So a few things come to mind. Awareness or just like, it's a sense, right? For me, it's a sense in my body. It's a feeling. And it's like, even though I'm really struggling and I'm feeling negative feelings about a situation or whatnot, there's something that happens that a friend calls or my kids show up

or just something that kind of takes you out of that mindset. so just the awareness, being able to, I think again, it's kind of like being able to notice it and be aware of it, because sometimes that's just enough to flip the switch.

The other pieces of it is, and this is for me and for others, believe there's something greater than myself that's helping me along this earth school that we are in. And so for me, sometimes it's just being in connection with that. sometimes for me, I'm a pro, I'm a.

verbal processor and I have friends that I can call and people I can touch base with and talk through things to help me kind of land where I need to land. And one of those ways is also through whatever is bigger than us, God, goddess, universe, however language you choose to use. so like sometimes for me,

Coco Joy (16:15.889)

I'm not a big like sit down and meditation and contemplative prayer, which is super valuable. And I'm so jealous of people that can really do that as a full practice. I go in and out of waves of it, but like simple, like driving in my car and be like just having a conversation. And it might be like talking to myself in some ways, but to me, I'm talking to something bigger than myself. And that to me is prayer and also part of finding the joy of, know, acknowledging

whatever it is that's going on, which might be another piece to the joy of just like, you know, I think we're wired for whatever reasons, culture, upbringing, what to push away emotion that doesn't feel good. And I've learned and again, still practicing that.

You got to sit in the emotion. You got to feel the feels in order to move through them and heal from them. I think, you know, there's all sorts of modalities that really exemplify this and talk, speak to this, you know, cognitive behavior theory is one of them. But a lot of these modalities of supporting people is being like being in the feelings. And sometimes that's where the joy is, is like being in the feelings.

giving it a little bit of a voice to come to the table, so to speak. But then it's done its job, it's time to move on, or it's time to allow that feeling to surface, acknowledge it, and then what can we do with it? And sometimes it varies per person. Sometimes people need to write, sometimes people just need to acknowledge it, sometimes people need to physically run.

Reese Brown (17:54.987)

Yeah.

Coco Joy (18:13.755)

And you know, there's all sorts of ways to process feelings.

Reese Brown (18:16.836)

100%. Well, and I do think that even in your answer, there's such a beautiful picture that you're painting of these kind of varied approaches that we can all merge together to create this kind of like spider webbing picture of practicing joy and what works for us. I love that you acknowledge that you're

A meditation practice is not the thing that works for me every day, you know? There are certain things that will not work, even though it is the thing that people are talking about and like you brought up gratitude. Gratitude journals are like very hot button topic in this kind of space, but some people are just not into journaling. It is just not what works for them. And so think acknowledging what is working for you is

Coco Joy (19:00.186)

Yeah.

Reese Brown (19:13.334)

important. And it's okay that it looks different. Because like you said, we're all wired differently and appreciating the difference of that. And the fact that, you know, some people may try meditation and journaling and neither of those work and it's like, I'm broken. I just won't ever feel joy. No, that is nothing to do with exactly it's no let's keep experimenting and trying

Coco Joy (19:33.454)

So not true.

Reese Brown (19:39.788)

reaching for these different things. And if that includes this higher power, if that includes community, if that includes art, right? There's so many different pieces that we can paint into this portrait of creating and choosing joy for ourselves. And I just love that. I love it. And I love your honesty with that too. It's so beautiful.

Coco Joy (19:59.675)

too. Well, you summarized it beautifully too. So that was great. Yeah. Beautiful.

Reese Brown (20:06.328)

Thank you. One thing that I want to ask you about in the very beginning, when I asked you about your story, said you do have a JLB. I want to talk about that a little bit because of course, now you have your own business coaching and consulting and helping people with their joy and their purpose and their transitions. What, why do you categorize those two?

Reese Brown (20:34.382)

professions as slightly different in your mind, right? Like what's the distinction there?

Coco Joy (20:41.529)

it's probably very telling about me. That's why I put both of them in totally two separate categories or boxes. Well, so I think before I could fully answer that, a little bit of background of my business, Coco Joy Coaching, is a relaunch. And before then, it was a different name and similar coaching.

Reese Brown (20:50.05)

I love

Coco Joy (21:07.133)

but encompassed lot of different things, facilitation, which is also something that I love doing, group facilitation. I worked, I did some post -parenting when moms were transitioning to parenthood. I worked for a company that helped moms, supported moms through that. I guess, it says you're really touching on my work right now, which is good and a little uncomfortable.

Reese Brown (21:36.452)

Thank you for acknowledging

Coco Joy (21:39.107)

I'm going to answer the question because it's part of this experience and it's very good. And it's pretty raw and honest and transparent of who I am, I think. So I, for now, compartmentalize the two. My J -O -B is a means to an end. It provides tangible things that are necessary in our current culture.

while that, while the business builds and continues to build, it is my stability. And who knows what the transition will be at some point. It might be that, you know, coaching consulting becomes my stability. But for now it's, it's separate or in tangent with, with the J O B.

And I will say, I'm one of these people that likes to have a lot of things going on. I have a lot of interests and that's been a blessing and a curse. I've been this way my entire life. For those that are Aniagram fans, I am a seven. There you go. There it is. And you know, it used to be, used to deny a lot of

Reese Brown (22:56.817)

I love

Coco Joy (23:06.375)

those parts of myself that are like, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. And over the years I've learned, let's do this, but let's think about it before we jump in. So, slowing down that little restless being that is inside of me. But, so even if one were happening fully, I would probably be doing something else.

So, but yeah, I mean, it's like there's this tangible practical explanation and then there's this, well, my personality is such that I do like to have, I like the juggle and I complain about the juggle too, but I seem to like it. It's a yes and for me.

Reese Brown (23:50.766)

Mm, sure. Right, I know I love that because I do think that that is something that we all kind of have in this, especially in, you know, call it the West, call it America, but this attraction to the juggle for different experiences and...

wanting to stay busy. And I even find myself like in moments of silence, like, okay, pop on a podcast, like, let's make use of this time. when it's like, actually, it's okay to sit in silence for a bit. And so I appreciate the honesty there, but also the fact that there is this piece of you that it's feeding that while you've learned to kind of balance the desires with what serves you longterm, there is still something

Coco Joy (24:34.077)

Mm -hmm.

Reese Brown (24:43.502)

feeding that piece of yourself that I think is worthwhile. One thing that you said in talking about it was that, you know, it also provides the stability, having a J -O -B provides a stability that is in alignment with kind of our current society and culture and, you know, operating financially is of course such a big question within that.

You've shared this personal take for you, which I so appreciate, but I would love to hear your opinions on what that means for our broader society and culture as a whole, because even baked into it's what we need in this society and culture is almost this. Please don't let me put words in your mouth, but wish for a shift in what that could potentially look like one day eventually.

but also I think speaks to something that a lot of us are really feeling and experiencing right now, which is this tug of war between the feeling of indulgence that seems to come with passion, even though it's not like hedonistic, it's actually very vital and important to our health and wellbeing personally and culturally, but it feels kind of icky to chase that when there

this other side that is, okay, but what's practical? What makes sense? How am I going to put food on the table? How am going to keep a roof over my head? Like those very base, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs kind of things, right? Talk to me about

Coco Joy (26:21.041)

Yeah, good question. A couple of things came to mind. And like a lot of this is not going to be figured out. And I'm air quoting for those that are listening. I'm like, right, these are listeners. They can't see my sarcastic emotions and my tone sometimes.

Reese Brown (26:34.349)

you

Reese Brown (26:39.746)

Right?

Coco Joy (26:45.341)

I don't know if we'll see the big change in our lifetime or at least my lifetime. think you're a little bit younger than I am, but...

I've thought about this on different types of issues. When you're talking, I'm thinking, okay, in some ways, this is the conversation that we have around mental health wellness and in our culture, right? Our culture meaning the West and US and maybe even globally. This is where I'm from and this is where I live and this is my lived experience here.

And in some ways, we've come a long way. And I love that we have big name people, celebrities setting examples and having conversations. the Olympics are going on, so Simone Biles comes to mind. And even the honesty of her and other athletes that kind of lead by example. mean, being an elite athlete is terribly

taps into that mental health, right? And in good and in also negative ways where pressure, pressure is good, but too much pressure leads us to other things and physically can manifest. Anyway, so there is this kind of cultural mental health wellness conversation. And I think that helps. Again, it's kind of a piece of the pie.

In some ways, there's this systemic, systematic shift that hopefully will continue. In my opinion, I'd love it to go a little faster, but in some ways I feel like, okay, good job us, we're getting there. We're getting there. So let's celebrate the wins and celebrate what's good and find the joy in it, right? Joyful that we have these things that are happening. And also there

Coco Joy (28:54.835)

counter experiences that are happening and definitely don't want to dive into the political, you know, whether right now or now, but that has a global or national weight on everybody, wherever you stand. That's a heaviness. So mental health, I think, is really important. So there's this kind of broader bird's eye view, systemic, systematic.

shift that I think would be lovely for us to continue moving forward around mindset, self -care, and such. And then there's this inner work. And I think this is true for most issues. we can squeak and complain and stuff, and there is a bigger campaign that we need to do, but there's also an inner campaign that's, I think, important to anything that we do that, where we want to change.

or shift and so that inner work I think is important. With that, one of the things in our culture that I've been having, it's so strange, I've been having this conversation with multiple people is this shame around self care or shame around slowing down. We have

constant consistent message of what success looks like and it's either a financial success, status success, which creates pressure. Again, like there's something good about that in some ways and yet there is, it's like the pendulum swinging too far, too far, you know, like where can we find the pendulum in a calm neutral state and

you know, of cliche as too much of anything I think can be harmful. But how do we have that mindset

Reese Brown (30:54.883)

Yeah.

Coco Joy (31:02.161)

I'm going to slow down. I'm going to rest and potentially be judged by others and thyself. Right? I should be. It's the shits like, I should be throwing another load of laundry in. I should be going for that run. I should be spending more more time with my children. I should be. I should be. I should be. And yes.

All of those things might be true, but if we got to a place where, me just check in and see like, what is, what is my being need in this moment? Is, do I have the energy, the capacity to give to these things? Maybe my body just needs to lie down for 10 minutes, like, you know, or maybe just need to go for a walk around the block, or maybe I need to.

sit in journal for two minutes or maybe I, whatever it is, simple, easy, quick, long, lengthy, whatever. And kind of back, full circle back to what we talking about before. Like it doesn't have to be some grand gesture or some grandiose thing. It can be just a simple thing. But anyway.

Can we turn the shame, whether you're externally doing that or internally doing that, so that we can rest, have peace, have calm, notice joy in the Merc? This journey of my back issue, which it's funny not funny

Reese Brown (32:56.32)

Right, right.

Coco Joy (32:57.075)

I had been dealing with lower back pain for years and still being very active, running crazy races. I play old lady soccer, we call it. And still continued to do it and got used to the pain. didn't even, I mean, I knew it was pain, but it was just so normalized, but it wasn't, know, this surgery slowed me down. I was forced to listen

my body and pay attention to the physicalness, but also the mental, because the mental part was also challenging of like laying down, not being able to do, asking for help. Hello. That was a biggie.

Reese Brown (33:46.052)

Yep. Well, and I think even in what you're just saying, like, we get used to the pain, right? In this example of your back, it is a physical pain. But also, if we take that as kind of like a microcosm of this bigger systemic kind of process that we have going on, we are used to the quote unquote pain of rushing, of being in fight or flight,

not slowing down and that kind of just our status quo has become fight or flight as opposed to rest and noticing joy and process. And even though it's there through everything, there is a certain requirement of kind of pushing back against that pain

Reese Brown (34:45.6)

Embrace what is actually there and going back to something you said earlier feel the feels as opposed to pushing right past

Coco Joy (34:53.459)

Mm. Yeah, it's feel the feels. Feel like I a trucker hat that says feel the feels. Yeah.

Reese Brown (34:56.396)

Yeah. Feel the feels.

Reese Brown (35:02.57)

Yeah, tattoo it right there or sticky note right on your forehead. One thing I want to talk about too, if you're comfortable, having this conversation, knowing that you're a mom. I feel like that's such a big piece of this puzzle, both societally, but also personally too, in that what a beautiful, important, big job.

Coco Joy (35:16.742)

Mm -hmm.

Reese Brown (35:31.692)

mom is, right? I am not a mom, so I do not understand it. But as someone who is very close to my mom and believes in the strength of women, maybe more than anything, I just have so much admiration for people that actively choose to be a piece of cultivating future humans. And I think it's so beautiful, but certainly

adds some layers to the go, go, go and the to -do list that we feel like we need to check off and even more expectations that we hear societally, but also internally about what does a good mom look like? What would I feel like is the bar for a good mom? And I'm sure there's other pieces to that too that I just am not even thinking about because I haven't experienced it that I would love to hear from you about how

Coco Joy (36:15.633)

no.

Reese Brown (36:31.198)

aspect of your day -to -day and identity plays into

Coco Joy (36:35.953)

Yeah, such a good question commentary race. And you're tapping into my old days of the mom stuff, when I was doing the mom support work.

Yeah, so I love, love being a mom. I knew from when I was very young, I wanted to be a mama. And so kind of in some ways that I knew early on that was, you some people are like, I want to be a blah, blah, blah. When I grew up, I was like, I always knew I wanted to be a mama and, and certainly the greatest job and joy of my life are my children. And I'd like to say that I've contributed to their goodness and their, I

They're pretty fabulous people. They're definitely my favorite people. And I'm also their mom. they're at the phase in life where one's a young adult and one is a teenager. And I have girls, women. And so your question speaks to my heart and is very relevant to my situation.

Reese Brown (37:26.135)

I love that.

Coco Joy (37:50.383)

But they're amazing women and they're going to continue to be amazing women, whatever they end up doing in their life. And I think, you know, I have so many thoughts on what you said. So, you know, I think I hope I've done a good job in raising strong women, but it's also life has to bring them experience to continue to build those muscles and, you know,

I think one of the hardest things about parenting is see your children fall or fail. And yet it's such a good life experience for them to have. And hopefully, you know, a good mom is somebody who just loves and supports them through whatever it is that they're going through. And that looks different for different people. It's honestly, I mean, we're all different humans. So one formula doesn't work for every single parent, you know, it's...

I used to say to my mom's groups, like, we're going to talk about a lot of stuff in these groups. Some stuff's going to resonate, some of it's not. Take what's yours and leave the rest. Like, know, judgment -free zone, we're all going to do things a little different. And, you know, if we also discover a new way of doing something, let's share that because it might work for some. You know, so the mom world is super, super judgy, you know? And there are many ways to...

to parent and you know, as long as you're not harming your children, you know, and you're providing love and support, think, you know, it's okay to be different in how you parent or how you mom or whatnot. And the moms do, I mean, the mom world, maybe because mom job is so important, we self -inflict that shame because we want to do such a good

Reese Brown (39:31.758)

Amen.

Coco Joy (39:47.473)

and we want to be the best mom ever. So that is again, a lot of pressure too. And that's not, I'm not giving, I just want to I'm not giving license to be a terrible mom or do harmful things. Like I'm sort of speaking to like, you know, and part of being a good mom is being aware of your own stuff. Parenting is a place where we do a lot of projecting.

Reese Brown (40:00.874)

No, of course, of course.

Coco Joy (40:16.925)

we do a lot of reliving of our own upbringing. And sometimes we have to stop behaviors or stop ancestral lineage of beliefs or, you know, I believe that there is also ancestral trauma that gets imprinted on our DNA and ourselves and that gets passed down and.

I mean, that's definitely a woo woo world thing. Well, maybe not. I think there's some science behind it too. you know, and it's also, this is a whole other kind but that's also what I think has contributed to the issues around race and health around people of color and whatnot. that's a whole other conversation. And I'm not an expert. I'm just from what I've gathered. Anyway.

Reese Brown (41:08.066)

Hahaha

Coco Joy (41:09.213)

And it's probably not my place to speak to that. So, but in regards to just everybody, right? We all have cells, we all have DNA. You know, we, I think some of that gets passed down if we can break some of the unhealthy things and continue the healthier things and learn and add to it. You know, the parenting journey is, it's an exciting one, I will say. And there's been different phases

my kids upbringing that I've enjoyed more than other times. There are phases of parenthood that just flat out suck. Even when they're fabulous kids. And I am not going to say what those phases are because they're probably different for each person. But in that, and again, I to do this with my mom's

Reese Brown (41:51.748)

right?

Coco Joy (42:03.055)

there are phases in those first, in that first year, I mean, I feel like the first year there's just transition, transition, transition. And like, once you get through something, there's like this exhale, like, I did it, I made it through. And I would encourage my moms to like, to celebrate that. Like you made it through the diaper phase, or you made it through the feeding, you know, through the night phase, or you made it through sleep deprivation. Like it's sort of those moments of celebrating, finding the joy, right? We did it.

And there was a point and I've totally lost my point, but let's see. I had so many thoughts fluttering in my brain. Those are just like, we're talking. Let me hold it and give me one second. Cause I think I can get back there. again, glimpse into my brain. You're welcome. let's see. we were talking about

Reese Brown (42:37.272)

You were good. There were so many points. No, I love it.

Reese Brown (42:51.428)

You're good.

Coco Joy (43:01.811)

phases, the exhales, then parenting's hard, phases stink.

Coco Joy (43:14.483)

Totally gone. You can just cut that part out.

Reese Brown (43:16.45)

That is A -OK. That is A -OK. No worries. There's so many good thoughts and points built into everything you just said, too. One thing I'll throw out there is we also touched on the self -inflicted shame piece. I don't know if that triggers anything there. But no, I, as someone who, again, is not a mother,

can only imagine through like caring so deeply about other people in my life, what it feels like to care on such another level. That is like I on almost a daily basis, I'm worried about how I'm treating my friends and am I being a good friend? Am I being a good daughter? Am I being a good sister? I all of these things? Times a million to being a mom, right? And

Coco Joy (44:08.837)

Okay.

Reese Brown (44:14.936)

self -inflicted, but also societally inflicted pressure, but also hope of what we would want. And yet there has to be space for falling short. it just, and it's one of those things because you know, when you fall short, someone else is on the other end of it and it feels like it's unacceptable to do that. However, it has to be okay.

Coco Joy (44:28.113)

Hmm. So true.

Reese Brown (44:42.348)

Right? Because I mean, this is something I'm working on in like my friendships is that relationships are resilient. Your friendships should not be built to break. They're built to bend and flex as you fall short. And if you put your foot in your mouth and all of these things like that's accidentally hurting your friends feeling should not be the end of a friendship. The same way that you have no idea what memory is going to stick with your kid. But one mistake, one bad moment is not

a does not a bad mom make right. And in the same way that in friendships, I mean, again, please correct me if I'm wrong, because I do not want to speak out of turn. And this by any means. But I do feel like in friendships, like the quality of my relationships, I can usually measure through how the repair is done, not how often a mistake happens.

Coco Joy (45:13.444)

Mm -hmm.

Reese Brown (45:38.638)

how that person shows up when we hurt each other. And it seems like the same might be true of moms, where it's not if you fall short or you make a mistake or an imperfection happens. It's how do you talk about that with your kids? How do you show up and say, mom was angry and hangry and I needed a beat and let's talk about what happened? Like, cause that's also teaching all of these beautiful things to your kids too of

This happens to everyone. What should you do when you're going through that too?

Coco Joy (46:11.699)

Yeah, I think so as few things come to mind, spot on, like there's this, like the recovery, the making mistakes, we're human, we are flawed, we're designed to make mistakes, we're designed to love also. And again, I think there's been, I don't know when it happened, but there was a shift in.

you know, being perfect. And we can't fail. We can't fail. can't, you know, we have to be perfect. And again, I think it's culturally and in our work that is, that contributes to that.

Coco Joy (47:04.131)

One, and so this is leading me to like this other thing that I feel really strongly about is culturally, and I'm bold, I'm gonna say this is a cultural issue, individual issue, but like big cultural issue, is we forgot how to forgive. And it doesn't mean we forget, and it doesn't mean we have to forgive. It's not even forgiveness, it's grace. Let me change that. We have forgotten grace. And...

Reese Brown (47:16.537)

I love

Coco Joy (47:34.521)

There are situations where I was brought up in a, not brought up, but there was messaging in my young life around evangelical Christianity where there was this pressure to forgive and forget. And as I got older, I deconstructed that and have new sort of opinions about that. The grace is not lost.

And I'm still, I'm still struck, like this is my work also, like how do we give grace when somebody wrongs us or how do we ask for grace when we've wronged somebody else? And, and I think depending on the circumstance, there are situations where things are traumatic or violent. I don't know if we need to forgive our perpetrators or people who have caused harm,

for the things that make us human, where we have to learn lessons of forgiveness, grace, repair and healing, then we need that component, that grace to work through it. And on either end, whether you're a receiver or a giver of harm or some sort of issue in a relationship, you have to feel the feels. Like you have to own

you have to take responsibility, accountability, and then be able to genuinely repair it. I think culturally we've lost that skill. Is it a skill?

Reese Brown (49:14.27)

Yeah, mean, yeah, I would argue. Yes, I do think it is that so often I think it's much easier to say, I'll just let it roll off my back and move on because I don't want to go there. Right. So easy to do that and then be like, but I'm good. I can get over it when

Coco Joy (49:28.957)

So easy.

Reese Brown (49:36.76)

That is when we see this like years long resentment, I think build up. And a lot of that is in not wanting to be a problem, not wanting to own our needs in a relationship of maybe it is a trigger from something that it's like, I recognize that I am not being fully rational when I say this thing you said hurt my feelings, but I still need to own that it hurts my feelings. And I think it's really hard

someone when they hurt us. And I think that that has to be the first piece of that, right? Like you can't have grace for someone if you're not having this like exchange in even the word like repair and healing that you're using. I mean, it makes me think of like, we can't put me as born in a bandaid on a scrape until we acknowledge that the scrape is there. And

Coco Joy (50:34.323)

You

Reese Brown (50:34.872)

then it'll get infected and fester and... that's not good.

Coco Joy (50:39.067)

Yeah, or maybe even give a little bit of like, I'm so sorry, you got scraped. you, you know, like some, you know, compassion, right? There's got to be some compassion in there. then we can, it's, you know, it's, I mean, this is very, I feel like this is very,

Reese Brown (50:44.758)

Yeah, right.

Coco Joy (50:55.677)

forget the word, like, I mean, it's a bit, it's, I feel like this topic entails a lot of layers and we're kind of just scratching the surface of it. I think, you know, to summarize it or to put it simply, it's how can we find, like, how can we bring grace back into these?

relationships or situations because sometimes it's not even a relationship, it's the situation that's happening and how do you, know, internally, externally, you know, allow for grace and forgiveness. Again, I think this is a whole other conversation and in that, in that, in that there is joy, right? If we sit in the feeling, feel like crap because we hurt somebody's feelings or did

Reese Brown (51:36.202)

I, yeah. It totally is.

Coco Joy (51:49.841)

wrong and we're able to work to sit and feel and examine and figure out maybe not necessarily why, but maybe why and then take responsibility and then be the initiator of the repair. Like that's hard, know, be the initiator of I'm sorry and I know I hurt you or

That's hard to do now. I mean, it's hard to do, period. But I just feel like there's a little extra oomph that makes it harder now because I think there's a lot more judgment that we experience. the fear kind of takes over. But man, if we can overcome that fear, how wonderful. And then we repair and we, you know, there's something joyful in the thought of that journey

Reese Brown (52:20.867)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Reese Brown (52:42.755)

Yeah.

Coco Joy (52:43.601)

Because I believe, whether it's circumstance or a relationship, once you work through something, there's some added benefit or something more that happens in that relationship that is a blessing or that is good.

Reese Brown (52:59.748)

Totally. Well, it's like the callous metaphor, right? I keep going to all these metaphors, but it's like when you hurt something and it grows back stronger because you've been through it, you know how to withstand this. There's a tool in your tool belt as a relationship that now you know you have the ability to use together, that you're stronger than

being happy hour friends, you are friends that can get past a really hard thing. And I do think that in terms of this kind of cultural conversation, there's so much here, but I think grace also requires time and this conversation also requires time and goes back to kind of what we were talking about earlier that settling into doing this work.

Coco Joy (53:41.212)

I'm

Reese Brown (53:55.97)

requires acknowledging our imperfections and requires slowing down. And those are the two things that I think are really hard for us to do and perhaps go into this kind of why it's gotten harder and harder for us to do

Coco Joy (54:10.193)

Yeah, yeah, I love, I mean, I don't love that, but I love what you're saying as far as time. Time is absolutely part of that process. And sometimes it takes years and decades and sometimes it takes a minute. We just don't know. I wanna say one other thing about friendship, because you brought it up or relationships in general. And that

my experience is there are friendships that are, and this is totally cliche, but I think it's so good, is there are friendships that are there for a season and friendships that are there for a reason. And I am somebody, not everybody is like this. I value my friendships highly. I've created very strong

Reese Brown (54:40.612)

Cliche for a reason,

Coco Joy (55:04.797)

friendships my entire life and I value them. So I put a lot of effort in cultivating those to be long lasting. And for a long time up until probably recently, I've expected that in return and have not received it in return in all situations and have had to grieve the loss

certain people shifting in my life. And some of those people have exited and some of those people have stayed, but we've had to just redefine or, you know, or I redefine, you know. and I, again, I'm speaking at, this is something in my personal life that I value and I've created.

Reese Brown (55:50.329)

Yeah.

Coco Joy (56:03.739)

Right. I've I'm this is just part of my personality. I love people in my life. I love being in relationship with people. And so those are things that I give energy, as you can imagine, over the years, is exhausting. And so it also makes sense that some friendships have to kind of move along or, you know, or shift or whatnot. And in that there is a grieving process, too, you know, but.

And you're speaking to friendship, just, know, some of these friendships are lifelong, some are short term and some just pop in and pop out, you know, and they're for a reason, right? To teach you something, to have you experience something. Hopefully they're all healthy friendships for the most part. Not all are.

Reese Brown (56:53.4)

Right, right, ideally. But yeah, and I just think that's so true. And it's such a good reminder too, because there is such an emphasis on some different than the pressure that's put on moms, absolutely. But there is a different cultural pressure in terms of like, what does being a good friend look like? And

to feel like we are falling short on friendship or that we have an expectation that isn't matching up with someone else's expectation. It's like these things sometimes need to be spoken and brought into the forefront of these relationships in order to understand that. And there's also such a pressure, and maybe this is totally me projecting something, could be, but to have like lifelong perfect friendships

Growing up in school, was, I hopped around schools a lot. It's hard to maintain friendships when you are not in the same school with someone. It's hard to maintain high school friends when you go to college and college friends when you move to a different city. And those friends, you, single friends, when you get married or married friends, if you are entering through a different life transition or parent friends, if you're not having a kid, right? Like all of these different things that can.

feel like, this is something we don't have in common anymore, and acknowledging that that's okay. And when people exit our lives, that's normal. It is normal for the terms of a relationship to be redefined. And I think there is this

Stronghold on wanting our relationships to stay the same because we love them and we love these people and I love this relationship and this friendship that I have and I want it to stay this way forever. But it can't and that's grace for that person in the relationship. It's also grace for yourself and recognizing how your needs shift and change, right? So thank you for bringing that up. I think it's

Reese Brown (59:07.008)

very important and ties a lot of these pieces together, right? In terms of slowing down, finding grace and these life transition moments as well that you help people with. One thing I want to make sure we touch on because you brought it up during your story and I do think it's a really big piece of the life puzzle is a higher power

Coco Joy (59:18.653)

Mm -hmm.

Reese Brown (59:33.38)

for personally, completely agree, like, believing in something greater than myself has been one of the most

invaluable lessons and learnings, but also motivators for the way I want to live my life and the person I want to be. And it sounds like we may have a similar experience. And, you know, I'm in the Bible belt even now and having that kind of evangelical Christian upbringing, even if it's not in your home, it's all around you societally and learning which pieces of that to

Coco Joy (59:57.365)

Okay.

Reese Brown (01:00:09.752)

what to deconstruct, what works, what doesn't, keep what works and leave the rest, and how that can impact the way we view relationships ourselves, the way we live our life. Tell me a little bit about how you define this something greater than yourself and what your relationship with greater than yourself has turned into for you

Coco Joy (01:00:37.479)

Good one, Reese. Good, good, good.

Reese Brown (01:00:39.564)

Also, if we don't want to go there, we do not have to either. I know that that's good question. Okay. Okay.

Coco Joy (01:00:42.469)

No, I'm happy to go there. I do not have an answer. I mean, I have an answer for myself, which is what you're asking. So thank you. it is the ultimate journey of my life, honestly,

Coco Joy (01:01:01.531)

I if we really like, you know, if I remember like asking as our God kind of when I was little, right? I mean, there's so, there's just so much, there are so many layers to this. And I don't wanna share too much detail of my upbringing to protect those that brought me up,

Reese Brown (01:01:21.678)

for.

Coco Joy (01:01:25.521)

I had a variety. I had the rainbow of fruit flavors of influences around religion and non -religion. when I went through my teenage years, I shifted into this born -again Christian, evangelical Christian camp, which really was in conflict with one of my parents.

Reese Brown (01:01:25.592)

Absolutely.

Coco Joy (01:01:53.229)

the polarization that happened in that period of time. Granted, I was also a teenager who was going through teenage things and, you know, butting up against whatever I possibly could, you know, while also developing this. It wasn't even a foundation, but this influence of evangelical Christian. I'm just going to call it that because that's that language seems to be right with me. And

Reese Brown (01:02:22.286)

Beautiful.

Coco Joy (01:02:23.107)

And then I also had a family member who was part of the tribe that raised me who was a Baptist. So I did have this very strong Christian influence. And then I also had a family member who was not that and was more free spirited and what I label woo woo wee. And so it's almost like I had to go through both extremes to land. I haven't landed yet.

But throughout my life journey, and I will say, both or all of those initial experiences created a foundation for me of faith. Like if we really take all of the dogma and the messaging and the, pardon the phrase, the bullshit out, like it's all faith. It's just faith.

And I went through phases of being very, Christianity is the only way. And this is quite judgmental in my thinking. And for those that I maybe have interacted with in the past, and I harmed you in that way, I apologize. That was a phase of life that I needed to go through.

but is not how I identify myself in associating myself with now. I went through a period where I shut it all off. And I made decisions in my life without faith and just do and brain and thought. And there were beautiful things that came out of that. And there were things that I needed my faith in in that journey too. And I didn't have it or use

I mean, I had it, but I used it, you know, turned it on. And then I got to a point in

Reese Brown (01:04:21.548)

Great.

Coco Joy (01:04:29.075)

Probably in my late 30s or, you know, ish, I don't know, late 30s, maybe early 40s. There is definitely a weird shift that happens around 40. I'm like, why am I here? Anyway, in the midst of that phase, I reconnected with faith and reconnected with a Christian based religion, I guess, or church.

Reese Brown (01:04:40.164)

Hahaha!

Coco Joy (01:04:59.057)

But the people in it were way more open than I had ever experienced in previous Christian church communities. And I had a belief that if you didn't believe the Christian way, it wasn't Christian. And so in this new community that I started to be a part of, I

the beginnings of what I called my deconstruction, my religious deconstruction. And I think I'm at a point where I'm starting to reconstruct. I would say the last 15 years have been around this reconnecting with higher power genuinely from my heart, from my soul, it being a real spiritual journey versus this religious journey.

And in that I found my way of connecting with God with higher power. I've even like I went through a phase of looking more into the feminine side of the Trinity. What does that look like? What is that? Why don't we talk about that? Where is that? You know, and kind of went a little extreme in that direction, too.

Reese Brown (01:06:15.972)

Thank you.

Coco Joy (01:06:26.579)

And today, it's still in this phase of, I don't know if it's reconstructing. I feel pretty solid in my journey right now, but I tend to lean on the inclusive side of life. try, I don't always succeed in doing so, but why can't we all be part of the same community? We just practice it differently or have...

different language around it. Now, with that said, do think extremism is violence and harmful in any religion or faith -based community. If you are harming people, and that could be with language, doesn't have to be physicality or exclusivity, that is not, in my opinion, healthy or safe. And if we're really

really breaking down what Christianity is very not Jesus -y. Right? I we could do like, I believe Jesus was here for the marginalized and for the people that needed love and support and care. I don't think Jesus was, you know, existing to elevate the 1%. Although God bless the 1%. Thank you. Thank you for creating, you

Reese Brown (01:07:54.643)

you

Coco Joy (01:07:54.959)

wealth so that you can provide things. you know, I just, I'm really, I struggle with dogma around religion and extremism. And I think our country is experiencing a religious, a Christian extremism that is unhealthy and violent. Yeah.

Reese Brown (01:08:00.036)

Great.

Yes.

Reese Brown (01:08:15.126)

Yeah, I so appreciate one, your vulnerability and sharing that story. think that conversations around God and higher power are arguably one of the most deeply personal things we can talk about and is also like on the list of things that you don't talk about, right? It's like, you don't talk about finances, you don't talk about politics, you don't talk about religion. But I think it is so important because

It informs so much of who we are and how we connect to other people. So thank you for sharing this. And I love, love, love this conversation. One, I absolutely, I just have to voice my agreement with your discourse around Jesus. It's like, he was there, whether we believe that Bible is,

literal or a metaphor or somewhere in between.

Coco Joy (01:09:11.069)

Mm -hmm.

Reese Brown (01:09:15.592)

The archetype of Jesus is love, is for the marginalized, is for the oppressed, was marginalized and oppressed. And that is why he was such an important figure and why love prevails, right? In that, and I want to take what you were saying about this extremism being violence and offer a recommendation to our listeners. My mom actually introduced me to this documentary.

and it's called God and Country. And it is based on a book that I'm forgetting the title of. I'll put it in the description of the video. So if any of the listeners want to check it out, they can check out the documentary and the book. But it is talking about from a Christian perspective, the way that it is being malaligned with practices that are deeply unchristian and that are deeply harmful, violent, and detrimental

not just oppressed and marginalized groups, but us as a whole society, because we are a minority majority. And I deeply believe if you hurt one person, you're hurting all of us, right? So I want to throw that out there as further research for anyone who is curious about this, that you're talking about with being careful about how we conduct organized religion.

But I also want to return to this concept of language that you've brought up too, because I think that language and how we use it is so important in how we construct our faith systems and even the word faith. Like you hear someone say, well, I have faith and I know my brain automatically jumps to, well, they're a Christian, even though that's faith that's not grounded in any specific religion or spirituality.

Coco Joy (01:10:56.839)

Mm -hmm.

Coco Joy (01:11:04.391)

hahahaha

Reese Brown (01:11:09.454)

Faith is a belief. It is belief in something without having seen it. And we all have faith in something. I believe even atheists have a faith that there is not a higher power. That is still faith to a certain extent.

Coco Joy (01:11:24.787)

Well, they have to have faith that there's air and we can't see air.

Reese Brown (01:11:27.788)

Right? We can't see it. We cannot see it. But I think that the way we interact with that faith is just so telling about how we interact with ourselves and other people. One thing you also mentioned at the very beginning that I kind of want to get your two cents on, because I just am endlessly fascinated by this, is you said whatever language you want to use, God, goddess, universe.

consciousness, awareness, right? Like all of these different things out there. What is your chosen word that you like to use for your higher power and why have you landed on

Coco Joy (01:12:07.773)

So before I'm gonna answer that, because I want to just acknowledge the God in Country documentary, I haven't seen it yet. part of it, so thank you for reminding me. I go through these phases of, it's very simple, back to what we do, like this restlessness or this excitement that I, I'll dive into something and then I'll be like, whoa, I need to like pause because, so I did a lot of like reviewing of documentaries and finding people

you know, on Instagram that I'm listening to and trying to like, you know, part of my journey of deconstruct, reconstruct. And I got to a point where I was like, I can't, I just needed to pause the research side or the investigative because it was becoming, I felt trauma response happening. And I was like, I saw the title of that and I was like, nope, I'm not going to watch

Reese Brown (01:12:49.496)

Yeah, totally.

Reese Brown (01:13:02.084)

Can't do it.

Coco Joy (01:13:03.121)

But now you've inspired me to go back to it and revisit it, especially after this conversation. Where I have landed, so I'm, I actually symbol, like I'm grounded in God. Like God is, the language that I just, what I go to. I go through, there are parts of me that feel bad about that because

And that's that, you know, there's something still I'm working through because I went through a phase where I was like, well, what if we read the Bible and we changed all the words to goddess and she? Wouldn't that be interesting? And I never did it. But then I was like, let's ruffle some feathers around and see, like, what would that like?

Reese Brown (01:13:38.275)

or.

Reese Brown (01:13:52.759)

Reese Brown (01:13:57.366)

Yeah,

Coco Joy (01:13:59.613)

What would the messaging and the religion look like if it were that? Or if we changed the language to some sort of neutral they, which is very controversial in a lot of places. But by the way, God is neither he or she. They are they. But we have, we quote unquote, there's been some construct around.

the masculine being the powerful, the dominant. And so there was a period of time where I was like, goddess. And then that didn't feel good either. That felt not comfortable for me. Not saying that that's comfortable for somebody else. But for me, was like, this doesn't feel comfortable either.

Universe just felt impersonal. I use that one too for me. These are all for me. Yeah. And I love it when people say universe when they refer to it. And in some ways, universe is universal. It means whatever you choose. And I think at first that's how I viewed it. But then for some reason, and I can't speak to it,

Reese Brown (01:14:58.562)

Yeah, no, and that's absolutely, that's what we're digging into.

Coco Joy (01:15:19.375)

not thinking of, but at some point I just was like, this feels lofty, like so big. Like I needed for me a little bit more of a human attached to my God. And so I've just landed in God. I've also have just accepted that, and maybe this is part of the conditioning that I experienced as a young person, like God is more male in my brain. In my brain,

Reese Brown (01:15:30.701)

Yeah.

Coco Joy (01:15:48.759)

And I struggle with that too sometimes because I don't think, don't believe God is he or she. Like I just think God is God. But when I'm speaking in my prayer, that is the natural sort of image that I perceive or that I'm, or energy. Cause it's really not a figure, it's more of an energy for me. And then,

Reese Brown (01:16:06.787)

Mmm.

Coco Joy (01:16:16.647)

I've just, think I have to be okay with that. Like that's lovely, you know, too. Like, well, that's lovely. There's this incredible male energy that you feel safe with. And how beautiful is that? My experience, I haven't always been safe with men. you know, like there is a comfort in my perception of the image of God is male.

That does not mean that somebody else has this image of God is more feminine. I think that's wonderful. I do feel that God has both masculine and feminine. And I think we've forgotten the feminine, but that's just my opinion. That's another conversation. Get into the patriarchy and all that stuff.

Reese Brown (01:17:07.396)

no, i - yeah. yeah. we could - i - right? and how that impacts all of this? i feel - ugh, we could - i - i know, i'm like, endlessly -

Coco Joy (01:17:18.674)

We can talk for hours, I'm sure. And let me just say, if you use the patriarchy comment, I just wanted to say, patriarchy harms men and women, not just women. Again, other conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Reese Brown (01:17:30.372)

That's right. That's right. Hundred percent. Yeah, right. But let's highlight an underline there. I just endless questions, endless questions that I would want to hear. But I do want to be mindful of your generosity of time and energy in this. if, you know, having these conversations is a lot, right?

Coco Joy (01:17:43.547)

Yeah, I can keep going.

Reese Brown (01:17:55.968)

So as we kind of head into the ending of our episode, first and foremost, is there anything else that you would like to add in light of what we've talked about? Is there something that you're like, let's go back to this real quick. I'd like to clarify this. I'd like to throw this out there. This is space for you to kind of whatever you feel called to share if they're your space.

Coco Joy (01:18:22.387)

I don't really, can't, nothing is jumping out. Like we've colored the rainbow of conversation. All the colors in it. yeah, this has been really lovely and, I've thoroughly enjoyed this. Yeah. No, I feel fairly complete. yeah. I mean, I, I, I, I would say, and maybe this isn't really included,

Reese Brown (01:18:31.108)

We have.

Reese Brown (01:18:38.509)

I'm so glad.

Coco Joy (01:18:52.339)

I have found resources for a lot of these conversations or topics that we've dived into. And so if anybody is curious of what resources I've used on my journey, I'm happy to share. And that's not to say the resources are correct. It just means that these were things that helped me discern and unpack and learn and all that stuff.

Reese Brown (01:19:10.454)

Absolutely. If

Reese Brown (01:19:17.7)

Totally.

if you send those to me, that would be fabulous. And I'll list all of those out in the podcast description, episode description, wherever our listeners are listening or watching, you'll be able to find all of those resources down below, including the documentary we touched on briefly as well as, Coco joy, Nicole's life coaching company that she is the owner of. If you would like to get in touch and work with her

Her information, her website, all of that beautiful stuff will also be down in the video description for anyone to access you and your beautiful work. Yeah. please, please, please. I would love to.

Coco Joy (01:19:56.551)

Thank you. did think of something. So I don't know how we weave this in, but I sort of forgot a big part of the God journey was through energy work. Yeah. So I experienced energy work. And by energy work, mean, people kind of know this more as Reiki. And that seems to be the more familiar term, but there

Reese Brown (01:20:11.004)

mmmm

Coco Joy (01:20:24.401)

different modalities of energy work or body work is another kind of language that's around. So through that, I experienced a lot of healing, physical healing in things that I experienced, but also spiritual. And that helped me also reconnect to something greater than myself. And I eventually got trained in a few modalities as well. So I am not a practitioner like on the table anymore, but it's something

you know, I feel like it had enhanced how to feel intuition and connect with something, whether, you know, it's something for somebody else or for myself. So I just wanted to throw that in And you can keep it.

Reese Brown (01:21:08.356)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. No, thank you for adding that. if I'll include some resources for energy work down below as well, it's also been really important to my journey. And there's an episode of the podcast with a Reiki energy healer. So if you would like a really easy resource listeners, go check that out with Savi Davidson.

My last question for you, Nicole, just to really try it and put a bow on this beautiful, magical conversation that I'm feeling so grateful to have had. What is one word to describe how you're feeling right

Coco Joy (01:21:53.784)

that's easy. Joyful.

Reese Brown (01:21:57.614)

Joy!

Coco Joy (01:21:59.943)

Right? We got to bring it full circle. No, I, you know, you are a joy. I think I have said this too in our other work together, but like you are, your energy is very joyful. Your smile, your questions, your commentary, your thoughtfulness, it's been really a joy to get to know you and work with you. So I feel really honored and blessed to have you in my life.

Reese Brown (01:22:03.31)

post -sneak

Reese Brown (01:22:27.212)

I mean, same across the board. I'm feeling so, so grateful. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your joy with

Coco Joy (01:22:35.399)

Yeah, you're welcome.

Thank you, Reese.