so this looks closer to me than to you it is a little bit but I'm usually really loud but you're kind of loud too so I'm going to do this you think I'm loud well your voice is just resonant and normally my voice is too like is it really yes huh like um I've always thought I'd come across this really soft no okay I love you but no but I don't really I mean I know I have a tone that I use my teacher voice but well it's not even when you go into your teacher voice and you like get Stern it's just your normal speaking voice is much clearer and at like a specific register that I think I have too that it's not that it's deep it's like no cuz I don't have a deep voice it's like resonant that is the best word I can use to describe it but normally when I'm talking with guests my voice is so much louder than theirs but yours is not not based on the way it's reading yes exactly so cool hi Mom hi Reese how are you I'm doing good how are you I'm awesome good it's always funny starting to record podcasts when obviously we were talking before this and we don't normally talk with a microphone so I feel like no we do not it'd be bad if we did it would be awesome if we did right we come up with some really awesome things we would and people would we we would remember them problem is we forget them but we would remember them right well of course my lovely mother you are familiar at the podcast um first and foremost thank you for your time and being here um but you know what's coming first what is one thing you're grateful for oh um no I told you I did not prepare so uh there's nothing to

prepare I don't know I I I I'm actually really thankful for my health yeah I think it's a good one compared to a lot of my friends that suffer that literally suffer I I I'm doing great it's a great one yeah I love that okay well it's not poignant but I am grateful well I think that's actually extremely poignant in the sense that I think health is something that's really easy to overlook at least for me I overlook it because I wake up and I'm like oh I'm not as skinny as I want to be I'm not as pretty as I want to be and I immediately start the day talking bad about my body instead of being grateful for I have two working legs that can hold me up and two working lungs and a heart that beats on its own accord and and you can do everything you want to do right nothing's holding me back from doing anything and yet I still start the day being mean to my body well you should never yes right but I and we shouldn't [ __ ] ourselves either so right but that is something I'm working on but I think that is a really important reminder um second question what is your story what is my story um so there's so many different ways you can tell your story right it probably what parts of your story you're wanting to share depends on who your audience is but I I guess I'll just get started and see where it it leads that's always a good place to go um I am I was thinking about your dad's podcast um so I am the youngest of four children um I uh grew up and I I guess I was fortunate enough to have tried lots of different things which helped me make choices but it also hurt me in that um I learned how much I enjoyed so many different things and that that makes it hard to narrow things down I think I had a a full childhood where I was extremely busy um doing sports and activities and dance and singing and um you know busy all the time right unfortunately I knew that uh for college I worked myself through school didn't have uh resources at home uh for my parents to pay for that so I stayed at home but I was okay with that living at home was fine um worked my way through college met your dad all through college and even through some of high school I always coached if it wasn't um little league softball or soccer it was coaching cheer or drill team dance and um you know I wanted to be a lawyer I thought but uh even though I was working practically full-time and in school full-time I still always had time and made time to teach kids um dance or Sports whatever and so I realized I guess about halfway through University that I really didn't want to be a lawyer I've been working in a law firm uh for several years that's how I put myself through school and the whole idea was I was going to go to law school after I graduated um I was like you know but that's not really what I enjoy doing what I really live for is looking forward to being with kids at the end of the day doing my sports or teaching them dance or doing choreography so I decided uh to become a teacher so I changed my major was an English major married your dad after college became a teacher uh really enjoyed that um and then I got pregnant with your brother and quit working uh outside the home as they say and work you know I wouldn't call it work because it wasn't work but but it's you know the hardest thing you'll ever love the Army um but in uh the home and raised your brother and you uh go on Masters in counseling did counseling for a while your dad's mom got sick so I quit working once again to take care of family and uh stayed home once again and then uh went back to work as a dance teacher so I I guess this that's the short version of so now I am a dance teacher and once again myself in a teaching position but um even you know I coached you and Tucker y'all Sports the whole time y'all were growing up and um never got away from that so yeah I guess that's kind of who I am I guess I say myself as the teacher yeah a consistency there right a couple things that I'm curious about um we'll just start at the beginning obviously you started by saying that you were fortunate enough to experience a lot of different things and try out a lot of different things but then it also made the narrowing down process more difficult and one of the things that you never tried out in childhood was law and yet that was still something that you were drawn to oh I see um when you were going to make a decision about your adult path that was you can never practice being a lawyer in Middle School rightless like on debate team but even that is so and I did do that in high school I did do and I did it really well and I think that was the mo trial thing I I I won awards doing it there you go so so what was the narrowing down process like because I think that's something that I mean you know I struggled with and I think a lot of people who are very driven passionate people find ways to be passionate about anything that they're doing right um so how do you make that call how did you make that call and what is that process like so I do think it's hard and I'll say for people like you and I uh if because we're perfectionists we're good at everything we try just because I am not going to be bad at it I will not be bad at it my ego can't handle being bad I'm gonna I'm going to kill this I'm going to be the best at this so sometimes it's hard to make the distinction between um I'm good at it because I really enjoy it or I'm good at it because I'm really trying hard to be good at it or I really enjoy it because I'm good at it it's really a hard distinction and so that's why um I think finally um I think the main driver with me being an attorney um was I I really was Money Motivated and I felt um putting myself through college um my brothers and sister didn't have um that going for them uh I really wanted to succeed monetarily and that was the way I could see of doing it and I had aptitude in that I didn't feel like it would be um a difficult path for me uh being a doctor was not in the cards I've never enjoyed the Sciences I knew that that wasn't what I wanted to do and I'd had some success uh doing legal type stuff in high school I was working in a law firm and it seemed like an easy logical path yeah however the things I was really enjoying doing without getting paid to do it uh that I invested my time in was uh coaching Sports and choreography uh doing things and most of those things were outside actually and it's physical it's creative um so marriage of a bunch of different things it really is so I've probably heard you say this before but I don't know if I've ever really latched on to it in this way I didn't realize that you pursuing um law was also a money motivated Choice what do you think because now even though you and Dad obviously are extremely hard workers and that has um afforded me and my brother a privileged life um I wouldn't call you Money Motivated oh I'm absolutely not Money Motivated so why do you think that was such a motivation back then I think uh how I grew up there was some emphasis plac on how money is an indicator or you know a scale that reflects success um that it it was also probably um imparted that we don't work for fulfillment we work for money and I didn't put that together until but actually it was really Young when I put it together actually that okay what what I'm actually looking forward to what's bringing me joy is teaching essentially because coaching is teaching and I decided I decided I'm going to do what makes me feel awesome I'm not going to do what's going to make me Rich yeah and that's what's important to me what was that Paradigm Shift though what do you think actually pushed you into that change of mind because you know I agree I was raised with that mindset because you and D agree that um work ideally if you're fortunate enough to find this you should just find a job that pays you for doing what you love right like that would be the ideal life for most people M when do you think you figured that out because obviously there's things that you're raised with that you don't realize until you're older and you start doing stuff for yourself that you're like oh that's actually not true right and was just told to me right so what was that moment of realization um you know it's interesting and I've heard you talk about on your podcast a lot how college is your University years are such years for growth and you learn so much about yourself you definitely start separating from your family of origin you start making the distinction between what you're grown up being taught about the way life is and what life actually is for you yeah and your own um philosophy on life and I think I was pretty young but maybe not whenever I started thinking I don't think about things the way my family thinks about things and um I don't necessar neily need a prestigious job to make myself feel fulfilled and like I'm doing something important yeah that money isn't the thing that makes you feel fulfilled right or doing something important right even though I've worked like your dad we we both have worked since we could work right and earned money and money did provide us with opportunity and we were able to do things I do think that is more of a factor of survival than of motivation for y'all though when I think of that because neither of y'all came from money growing up right um you both had to work to put yourselves through school um and so like you said yes you've worked ever since you could but I do think a big part of that was well I do have to provide for myself yeah but you know what working has always been so much fun and I don't know if you remember that uh when when you and your brother were younger it's like you'll want to get a job working is fun you meet people you you get spending money that's yours and you get to choose how you spend it and it's such an opportunity for learning but it also gives you Pride yeah that's interesting though because I think that I always had that mindset towards like I looked at like clubs and teams as my job right and I felt a lot of owners ship and pride and like responsibility in that way and like meeting people and bonding with people through that however and we did it through work however you also had the sports thing I and I was involved in a lot of things in high school um so I I do think that there's clubs there's a difference once you inject money into the equation true do you think it is just a much bigger feeling of ownership or is is it a function of survival or is it just so I think I'm getting hung up on the on the word survival right I didn't have to work for survival um definitely food on the table blah blah blah however if I wanted certain clothes or concerts or whatever yeah that was coming out of my pocket right if I wanted to go to school that was coming out of my pocket but I got all the things that I needed so but even for like saving for the future sure right like that wasn't something that you had to start doing that much earlier than I did well well and you don't even have to save for your future I mean and and that's not that's not that sounds so weird I do and you should and you know you were taught that for sure and your dad and I are like you better start working and saving cuz when we die there's there's going to be a dollar left in the savings account cuz we're going to spend it all y um but of course that's just silly right because we're Savers and we always have been um but uh I forget where we were there I was just thinking about us telling you that you had to work and save your money um but you did have to save for the life you wanted to live yes nothing was given what I'm more getting at is that the early adult life that I have been given was not the early adult life that you or Dad were given true and that that is a very big difference in I think at least in listening to your story correct me if I'm wrong um your relationship with money right like not that I don't have respect or understanding of the value of the dollar but I think that that our relationship with it at least from an early childhood age is very different in the sense that even when I make decisions that are yes financial decisions that I'm making for myself in my future I probably make them with less fear just because of a certain level of um Baby safety net I don't know fear I don't know if fear is even right word for it but so for me so I don't I don't think fear I think your dad and I have always been such a team that I I never I don't think we've made decisions like I've never taken a job because I needed that particular job because it paid the most right I've never had to do that but I more mean like um because I do know people that are like that right right where they don't have the freedom to choose right I think I more

mean even in the decision to go into law a big motivating factor for that was it was money money right and for me I'm like oh I'll do philosophy and English and acting three things that will not make me any money and my parents are paying for that well not directly uh but so you hear what I'm saying right but I came to that realization when I was young 20ish give or take where I knew what am I doing thinking I'm going to get a law school cuz this is what I really enjoy doing and I have to say your dad and I since we met at such a well I was young of course he wasn't as young um we're both still yeah so so he's four years older so he was younger than I am now when we all met yes when we met yes so I was my freshman year in college he should have been graduating but that's another story uh anyway um uh we had so much fun your dad and I uh we've always had a lot of fun but

um he your dad's very driven and um where his talents naturally lie and what he really enjoyed doing I think make money right yeah where my talents naturally lie and what I enjoy doing don't well necessarily and that has it's all about societal values right it it's not because he's better at what he's good at and and I'm not as good at what I'm good at right um uh but because of society um when went your dad and I became Partners it was like I don't have to solely make decisions based on me providing for myself right because we have each other and I think that was more what I was trying to get at is that from the beginning of like early adulthood every single decision you made had to consider providing for yourself absolutely and I think for me I was more fortunate in the sense that you and Dad gave me the luxury of not always having to the best decision in terms of how can I provide for myself I can think of yes I need to be able to provide for myself but I can also spend more energy in other um so your dad and I definitely have the philosophy hear you will always be able to make money as long as what you do you do it well it doesn't matter what it is and and you should find out figure out what it is you're passionate about and make that your career because you know there are different standards of success um and monetari monetary wealth is not the standard your dad and I live by yeah no and it never has been but I think it's interesting how both of y'all have gotten to that point and raised well I don't want to speak for my brother but I believe those were the values that I was raised with right um is that money will come you will be okay you will always be provided for whether because you do have a family safety net or not if you're good and passionate at what you do the money will come you will always find a way and I think that that almost came from both of you having to work so hard to get there but then both ultimately making decisions that were partially saf sacrifices but partially investing in your own passion and fulfillment right absolutely I think yeah um and seeing that that still does pay off that's where it is right that that really is yeah you're not going I can't speak for everyone but I think your dad and I have uh been really fortunate that uh We've helped each other make decisions that have ultimately led us to feel fulfilled yeah

yeah um so making decisions that lead to

fulfillment you talk a lot about coaching and um the teacher role what do you think draws you to that to being a teacher to being I mean teacher is such an interesting role because like you said teaching is not just in the classroom teaching is not just on the field teaching is not just being a mom it is who you are I think it's right and it's also a function well it's like a lens through which you approach the world right when did you realize that about yourself and what do you think how do you think that changes the way you approach people because I think you're 100% right that that is part of who you are and time and time again we see that that is the role that you're drawn to right right um so did you ask when I figured that out about myself yeah I guess so when when did you realize like oh I I think it was you know when I was 20 years old give or take I think it was then when it was like wait a minute and and this is this is that because I never wanted to be a teacher and I always told myself you're not going to be a teacher because I had such negative um opinions of teachers extremely negative opinions of teachers experence uh partly so I I think I had some teachers that um I really had so little respect for and but more as people than anything and then that just translated into their yes lack of teaching ability right um I I the way that some teachers teach um you know you you get put in the role of being your own teacher and uh so there's that and still being able to read through the book and teach yourself something CU your teachers is not teaching it to you or whatever um just growing up and you end up being the one that's teaching everyone to play the game even though you just read the rules with everybody else but you're the one that can read it really quick and then teach it and not everyone can read a book and be able to teach something from a book right so what what do you do you think that's an innate quality that you have I think it probably has to be right because um

I so if you think about teachers I've always said that there's a couple of great teachers right there are the teachers that and I think um I'm probably more in this category that uh no matter what it is you can say teach this and they're going to be able to teach it even if they've never done it before um they can just break something down and be able to to figure out how to impart the knowledge it's almost Mastery of communication right and but breaking it down into teachable segments right and so many people that are experts at things um forget their journey of it and cannot teach it no they're the worst teachers well you always hear the stories of like they're just too smart to teach this and it's like no they're just not a teacher they just not a teacher exactly but you understand where that comes from in a sense that they've become autonomous have so much expertise that but it's not and you're not a teacher to me it's not the amount of expertise to me it's the inability to break it down um I don't think you can become such an expert in something that you can no longer teach something because that just is absurd right however I do think there are some people who are maybe really smart that could have while they were still more in the beginning process maybe have been better at teaching say probably better right still not great but if you're not a teacher you're not a teacher right and I don't care what an how much of an expert you are at something doesn't make you a teacher right um and then uh there there are some teachers that are so passionate about their subject and they just want to share it so I love those teachers too because they make you excited to learn yes and they want you to learn it they they want you to feel passionate and you want to learn it CU it's so awesome how great they feel and so you want to learn it so so you know there's two types of teachers there are really just great teachers that make something so easy yeah because that's their gift yes and then there's teachers that are just so passionate that it excites you right so I think those are a couple of different types of teachers I haven't had a lot of those two different types of teachers but um and I think that's one of the reasons why I was like I don't want to be a teacher these teachers aren't happy with what they're doing they're clearly not very happy people why would I want to do that right yeah um or but then realizing that you've actually repeatedly fallen into that role already and do really enjoy it like oh I can do this in a different way that is very fulfilling and matters a lot right yeah um and I do think that in my uh family there was a disrespect of teachers um probably came from a lack of how do you say this without it coming out um in a way that is really not not what I intend it to sound like um May maybe it's from a lack of opportunity as far as education uh so

therefore they you know couldn't be teachers themselves they didn't go to college that wasn't something my dad went for a year uh for to be a place officer but um not because they weren't intelligent enough for sure just um maybe an insecurity where they were speaking with teachers that like in my using my mom as an example super intelligent probably smarter than the teachers but my mom doesn't have a college degree you know she graduated really high in her class but clearly her live trajectory was graduate high school go to work period you know she she worked from the time she was born so do you think the lack of so you're talking about the lack of respect for teachers that come from your family of origin you think that that's more of a factor of insecurity for not having been a part of a like higher education pipeline yes absolutely and um but but I think it's more of a part of it insecurity but also maybe lack of understanding because if you're not in and around Academia I think that there's a lot of opinions about it out there and as someone who's in Academia I also have a lot of opinions about it right but I think it can be really easy to both undermine the role of traditional educational teachers and um over expect a certain level of quality from all teachers right like you can fall on both ends of the spectrum right in the sense that not every teacher is a great teacher however all teachers should be respected and it makes it really hard to hold I would bet the profession the profession is worthy of respect all humans are worthy of respect right there but you should be able to hold both this profession is a very Noble thing to do and you're not very good at it at the same time but but I definitely was raised with the um teachers aren't very smart because they're teachers they would be doing something else those who can't teach those do teach those who can't teach like those who can't do it teach it yeah I think we're saying the same thing yes um so that was definitely um the feel of uh the attitude toward Educators and my family have and therefore I did not want to be that I was say do you think you would have fallen into that path or not Fallen um gone down that path quicker had that not been the um attitude attitude towards teachers in your family um or maybe even just realized your passion for it if that hadn't been the attitude yeah I don't I don't know um

maybe I mean I I I could I'd have to really ponder about it um well also there were so many things you know actually I one thing I've always thought that I probably would have done had it been more encouraged is Athletics I really could see myself being I don't know playing college Level Sports and then then of course women don't have the options that men do as much but I think I I would have seen myself if um the women in my family had been encouraged to play sports of course I did play sports but um I think I would have seen myself go more that direction right and that is where I initially started in education you know I was an English teacher but I was also a coach and um doing quite well at it whenever I stopped but I think that I just really enjoy um Sports and Athletics yeah so I actually think that's probably where I would have gone however probably would have ended a coach right versus teacher and I think that both of those things are underpinned By One The Generation you grew up in but also the um attitude towards women that your family of origin has that can infiltrate other things for example teaching which is largely considered a female or woman dominated job likely to be more disrespected by people who disrespect women right um whereas Athletics it wouldn't be as expected for a woman to go into sports so I think like both of these things that you're talking about there's there's a there's a common theme there yes yeah absolutely so back to this kind of turning point where you left the journey to law school decided to pursue teaching as a career and not just as uh a role that you take on in life um earlier when you were talking answering directly what is your story you said directly and I quote

um really making your job or career about quote finding the things that you live for how do you find the things you live for well what are you doing every day what what what do you think about when you wake up in the morning yeah and when you that's what you're living for yeah yeah so I guess there's a difference between finding what you do actually live for and what you want to live for what you should live for those are different yes one should and are right living for but finding it I I think finding it it it's not out there it's inside right so so you don't have to go out to find it it's in you already so but you did talk about this isn't that I disagree this is just you disagree well no because I I don't I do believe that it's inside you however you talked about um experiencing and trying a bunch of different things and I do think that trying different things out and putting different things on can help you discover like external things to help you discover what's on the inside and absolutely make you better make you better at things that yes so what would you Rec what would you recommend if someone was like well anytime you want to try something I say try it and you know that that was um how you and your brother were raised like sign me up for this and and that's one of the beautiful things about having um resources at home is you can support your children in their trying anything and everything they want and if you had the inclination to um you know I want to try a pottery class okay let's do it um I want to and I'm sure you have a huge list I don't have as long of a list of things to put you in you you did sewing I mean and and that's of course Grandma had already taught you how to sew and um but you took a sewing class and because you that was your fashion designer uh and yes and you did this Fashion Camp because that it's great even if I don't see that's where you're going it doesn't matter yeah that's that's going to make you uh more able to experience life more Rich fully but also help you hone in on what your passions are what you like about different things um um just gives you a fuller richer life so it's never wrong to try something right ever so what do you think that actual relationship is then between if what you live for you want to live for you should be living for is something inside of you that's kind of an internal Journey what is the relationship between that internal feeling and the external experimentation of it

why does trying things out help awaken different things realize different things so I don't know if this answers the question that's fine but I was talking to a young lady a while back and she was in college and I feel like she was floundering a little bit not really knowing what she wanted to do and she said and of course this isn't you or anyone you know actually you do know her but this isn't like right it's not a thinly veiled conversation is not not so just for your listeners this has yeah and um she said uh you know I really wish my parents had have let me tried acting and she was 20 or 21 and I looked at her I was like do it now you're grown ass woman do it do it yeah and it I was it sounds so rude for me to say that you're a grown ass woman they're not holding you back but it's not I don't think that that's a rude thing it's a it's almost like an empowering thing right just go do it you don't no one has to give you permission no no and I say if you want to try it you should there's no reason why you shouldn't unless it's illegal right or immoral I I don't want you you do immoral things or illegal things but past that you just want to try murder maybe not that maybe not murder maybe not extortion in terms of I have something I want to do you literally can I do think that that's almost a I I don't even know what I want to categorize that as because I don't know what to call it but so many people fall victim to just never having been told yes it's like you can you can tell yourself yes and I do think it's a a parenting um a way of parenting that my philosophy of parenting is very different than other parents philosophies of parenting and I wanted to as a parent open the world and say you can be anything there's nothing standing in your way because there were things standing in my way yeah well I think most parents do have things that stand in their way and if you're not someone who's not a parent um well well not as a parent but as a child I had obstacles well right right but so speaking of someone who's not a parent yeah I cannot imagine being a parent who doesn't want to give my kids what I never had you know yes but so here's what's different and and I encounter this I encountered it this weekend when I was with um a group of friends a group of friends and uh just the way of thinking where parents who maybe for example uh Me growing up maybe I wanted to be an actor and instead of saying well go out and try that page it was like well why would you want to do that not even saying no but judgment behind it yes which is different it's completely different and and it makes you feel ashamed of even thinking about it and so I guess that kind of links in down the creative and Innovative process of and I do think that probably links in with my teaching thing where but at 20 I was like parenting is also a teaching role yes but at 20 I think I was like well yeah they're going to think I'm copping out and going to the easy career but that's where when actually it's one of the most noble and difficult careers to do well well right and um being a perfectionist um everything I try I really try to do it my best right can and um and I do think I did a good job at it I truly enjoy it I still like I said I'm still doing it now yeah and um anyway uh but parents who um impart part their judgments on certain things and you see the children's reaction to the Judgment saddens my heart because the world just needs everybody yeah and what every single type of person has to offer the world needs it yeah and um we we shouldn't devalue anybody for the work they do yeah period no no matter what they earn or well and that goes back to the the using money as a measure as a measuring stick for Success right it's like of course that goes back to the question of well how do you measure success how do you blah blah blah but like it or not even if internally or logically you're like well I know that money isn't the measure of success that it's happiness or your relationships or blah blah blah blah blah um that's not how Society measures it perod certainly is not you can try as much as you can but in order to function part of you has to succumb to I need to make money in order to be successful absolutely you just have to well and I certainly didn't choose being a missionary and I I could have gone to a third world country and become a teacher that way yeah and I did not well I do think that that's more complex you make less money that way um because of other moral considerations however Point Hur Point absolutely H um yeah so pivoting gears a little bit from your story to more general questions of meaning making um actually I think the missionary thing is a great jumping off point um obviously you raised Chris well I say obviously it's obvious to me because you're my mom but um well I said I didn't become a missionary so obviously there's some missionary type so you were just like me born and raised in Dallas Texas in the Bible Belt um with a Trad I grew up going to Baptist Church Church yes um but I would say now well it all started when I was 13 no no true true but I remember I I struggled with uh the Bible and the teaching the way the teachers taught I I think that has always been a challenge for me um is don't tell me how to think don't tell me what's right and wrong teach me how to think isn't religion just a template of what to think in a certain sense I think there's some um religious teachers that do a really good job a framework to help you think about certain things which is I think when religion gets it really right is saying these are some jumping off points to think about these moral and ethical questions but at the end of the day any religious text is an instruction manual and when you get instructions you're not supposed to think about them you're supposed to follow them so when you say religious text so and they're not all like like they're not all instruction so so the Bible definitely has some especially the Old Testament has right right um but um I guess where my biggest problem with the religion thing is and it was when I think I was 13 that it came where I finally spoke out in Sunday school and said wait a minute enough is enough well it and and at this very moment I cannot remember what it was I know I will later on tonight remember what the lesson was but I I was like okay what you're saying doesn't make sense and I was asking for clarity and the Sunday school teacher and you know Sunday school teachers are really not teachers I'm sure some are and some are actually School teachers that teach Sunday school blah blah blah right right right but they're not biblical Scholars you know they don't have all the answers degrees in theology right right and so but the way this woman was teaching um I I just have so many silly stories that are popping into my head and I have to tell this one and you know I do tangents but this one's hilarious so I think I was in fourth grade and the the teacher said well I was listening to the radio and of course we listened to the radio back then so she said I was Len and the song came on and it just spoke to me and it was I'm so scared well well and you know so I I love movies and music always have even in fourth grade I had a wide knowledge in music and uh she said this song Jesus loves you more than you could no and I was like oh my goodness that's from Mrs Robinson and Mrs Robinson seduce the child you're like that is from The Graduate yes I I was like and I'm in fourth grade thinking

this that is so okay so so so that happened to me a lot was like the disconnect like that doesn't even what but what another poignant example of like this also connects back to what we were talking about earlier with teachers when it's like I I you're supposed to be the one educating me and guiding me and if someone didn't know the context behind that it's like not that that's a bad lesson to take away if you're Christian and you're like okay yeah it's great to think that the god you believe in loves you more than you can know that's kind of a comforting thought however context is important and being educated about what you're teaching is very important right and I think it ties back into having a lack of respect for bad teachers that do a poor job of this um well and I know no one probably in that whole entire Sunday school class made that connection even the adults that were in there but also like but they yeah right

the and how that turns a lack of information turns people away it does and when you go to ask questions and the questioning is shut down with judgment to me that makes me think of what you were saying earlier where it's like well I want to try acting you want to try acting like it being shut down with judgment um I think that happens a lot of time in the church too where it's like wait okay so but why why is that the case and it's like you're questioning and that brings us to the story I remember the story oh the 13 13y old so the lesson was on tithing and when you grow up uh in Southern Baptist Church there's that like happens once a quarter Qi roll right so you get the once a quarter thing on tithing and you're supposed to tithe 10% and for some reason some families take that to mean 10% of your paycheck period in the story do it that's what you have to do and um I always remember thinking but 10% how about our time how about um actually much more valuable I mean resources and and I remember having all those thoughts whenever I was younger and I really was not being disrespectful when I questioned the teacher you were just curious I I really wanted like I said some clarity please teach me something about this and the Sunday school teacher so the teacher's example was and I kid you not was Pastor I forget what our pastor's name was let's just say Pastor Steve said um in church this morning you know this the Bible says this and my husband and I do it so you should do it too and I was like wait a minute that's not an explanation no I was like wait a minute I I don't really understand you know let's look at the scripture I wanted to look at the scripture she wasn't even referring to the Bible and I think everything should come from the Bible and that's the Protestant in me it it shouldn't you know we whatever but um as someone who no longer identifies as a Christian that's true Everything not everything should but but you shouldn't if you're preaching from a text you should be able to tie it back to the text it should always go back to the Bible to me it should go from it's from the Bible and your interpretation of the Bible lots of interpretations of the Bible but but the thing about the tithing and it was just rubbing me the wrong way and at that age I knew of families that were struggling and still tithing 10% and I remember telling my mom I'm pretty PR sure Jesus would be okay with them buying four new tires to replace the bald tires so they don't kill their children in a blowout on the highway right but in some organizations and that is what a church is uh everyone kind of finds out who is tithing their 10% and who isn't so it's more important for them to keep up appearances is in the church office when the people in your church should acknowledge you need new tires and Nancy don't give us 10% this month put tires and take care of your family your family should come first well isn't that the whole charity begins but in charity begins at home you again it it all I really think that like the them here personally though Jesus would say put tires on your car so this ties into something that I wanted to say um the theme that's really coming up time and time again is encouraging questioning and I think that that was true of our conversation of teaching as well because really bad teachers shut down questioning um and especially the teachers that make you be your own teacher you're just trying to like check the box to get through it right but people who see the lens approach life with the lens of being a teacher like you said as a parent you wanted to open up the world to me and my brother you wanted us to be curious you wanted us to explore you wanted us to ask questions right that's what a teacher's role should be right and I think in terms of the education system in Academia that's exactly what we were talking about now in terms of the church and religion that's what you should want the Bible if we're to we used to we used talk about that when you were younger and a question Jesus says the question but also it's Jesus and what is Jesus if not a teacher right that's what he absolutely sees the world through helping others what is faith without questioning it's meaningless well it's not Faith by the very definition faith is belief without proof right um but Jesus the teacher that tells you how it is he is the teacher that wants you to be curious and stay open right and so I think that this idea that questioning will always be good is so important and that there should not be any judgment around it is also so important and if I'm now I'm like reflecting back on our whole conversation I think correct me if I'm wrong but that really feels like a theme from you telling your story is time and time again having been told hold through judgment stop questioning right stop exping or even being lied to um asking make it easier to shut it down asking a question and then instead of modeling how to say I don't know I don't know find out let's find out being told a lie and then thinking this lie is the truth only for it to come out in a very embarrassing way that someone you really trust did lied to you and not a jokey thing like you're laughing about you know exactly what not a jokey thing because that that wasn't meant to hurt you no I know well in every okay so now we have to tell a story so there were several things that you were lied to about as a child which did come back to really hurt you right um this story that now we tell in a joking way about something that I was lied to about is that my mom who was born in 1969 not to put your age on class care um oh goodness Summer of Love okay Summer of Love um but told me that the song Pretty Woman by Roy Orbison was written by her and I loved that song as a child it wasn't written by me oh no sorry it was written about you yes um that Roy Orbison saw the most beautiful woman walking down the street goodness there's a lot of sirens I hope some everyone's okay well in this it's going to make me sound So Vain and I'm not no you're not but saw this most beautiful woman walking down the street and it was you and he wrote a song and of course I tell everyone that I know because I'm like oh my gosh my mom is the most beautiful woman she is pretty woman and all of my teachers are like mhm yes it's very cool re and I didn't find out till I was like 13 but yes of course that is not like a moment of old ultimate shame for me it's more of a Funny Story anything story and what you're talking about is different um but encouraging questioning and I think to tie it back to big picture I'm laughing at myself but how do you make meaning if you're not questioning right well okay and the questioning leads to growth yes and we we always even if you end up at the same answer you always need to be growing and moving forward and learning and um so so many things are going through my brain right now but uh try it back into where I'm at right now um so I teach uh dance and um I was teaching dance for a woman that was 15 years younger than me wh which you know but now I'm teaching dance for uh Bailey who is your age which is amazing love it love being able to support her and she's wonderful she is um but I love being able to teach with younger people so I'm constantly learning to right uh I don't teach dance today the way I did when I was 21 nor should you no it would be wrong and right and um I have to constantly be learning and brushing up in choreography and really odd that I teach hipop but I do um and so you know you got to stretch yourself and learn um new things all the time and not be afraid of it but just really I think be okay with looking silly I was about to say I think there's this fear of not knowing the answer and that's why curiosity can be shut down with judgement because seeing someone else's curiosity is almost a reminder of everything that you don't know too and I think that a really powerful shift at least for me that happened like I don't remember when but I remember going from this place of like oh my gosh I need people to think that I know everything all the time to I'm really excited when I realize I don't know the answer to that because that means I get to learn something new and it could change everything well and being a parent being a parent was really cool cuz I got to learn a lot of things as yall were learning them yeah right well and that's something I share with people all the time about our relationship and my relationship with Dad too is that I think it's the coolest thing in the world that 15 years ago we would have conversations about things that I was still learning about and y'all were still learning about about and then 5 years ago like I was first really getting into like Social Justice and um understanding what different like political systems and economic systems really meant and then we would talk about it and seeing that the conversations we had and the information that I was bringing to the table you and Dad were also listening to and not taking for granted and taking this as a learning opportunity um not only does it make a kid feel really valued and empowered by their parents that they see you as an autonomous individual who's bringing something to the table treating you like a peer right like that's really cool but it also then empowers you to go out and realize it like seeing you and Dad continue to change like I think it's the easiest for me to see it in the things that we we talk about and then I realize like a year later I'm like oh Mom's opinion on that has changed that's really cool right that I might have had something to do with that but also just seeing y'all change in general I'm like here are two people that want to keep growing want to keep leveling up want to be the best version of themselves that are modeling what that looks like for a kid who wants to do that too right that like at no moment am I going to go home and see my parents done no exact like that's a laughable thought for me to think of either one of you just like yeah we did it like that would never happen but I don't think that everyone has that model in their parents that's yeah so well those are I I think for friends too um you've got to choose friends that want the best in you that want to see you happy and that help you grow help you grow encourage enourage your growth and that you can help them grow I think the challenge you it's it's awesome to have friends that hold you accountable yeah yeah what my f my therapist always says you want a friend that isn't afraid to call you an [ __ ] you're being an [ __ ] your friend should be able to say you're being an [ __ ] yes um that's what a real friend would do it if if your friend can't call you an [ __ ] they're not your friend yeah and I know that sounds it sounds counter Inu true but if you can't hear your friend call you an [ __ ] then you're not a friend either cuz if it's someone you know and love dearly it should be the easiest to hear it from them but at the same time maybe it's the hardest to hear well I was going to say maybe you're not being an [ __ ] but you can have the conversation if it's someone you trust you can have the conversation right you should be able to say this is what I'm thinking right now yeah I think you may be off base and um um you can have the conversation grow together in that conversation so I also want to talk about in terms of you having continually grown still grow helping other people grow staying curious um you don't identify as Christian anymore and that's no and that's a relatively new thing and I don't know how often you so I remember us having the conversation about you identifying as a Christian well it's interesting because that for me is very much like I don't really however I think by some people's definitions they would consider me to be but I think by other people's definitions they would consider me a Satanist so I'm like so I remember us having that conversation right and you said I would consider myself a Christian and I was like well based on the kind of Christian and I was uh 20 years ago I would not consider you a Christian right so based on that um I don't consider you a Christian so I guess it depends on who's asking right right because um I definitely believe in Jesus right well and it's like if that's the criteria then I'm like well if you believe but it's not that to me that is not the criteria which gets into the complex stuff so being raised in a Christian household um where curiosity wasn't always encouraged um what has that Journey been like for you because you still believe in higher power and I would still consider you a spiritual person but I wouldn't consider you a religious person right um so what's that Journey been like um so I think it it's the same thing in me that um looks for teachers who and wants to be a teacher that encourages growth and questioning and sounds like I'm a hippie dippy teacher hippie dippy teacher you know I'm not you know as a coach I'm pretty hardcore I'm like Mega hardcore and as a dance teacher especially as my coach okay well and your brother would probably say that too but I I really am and I'm a huge disciplinarian and I'm pretty sure that doesn't come across in our conversation that they wouldn't say ree's mom was really strict lays down the law but but at the same time I always was very clear on expectations well and and I think there's a difference between being strict with manners and behavior whereas you hear strict and you think constricting but actually I would Define the way you were strict as providing safety so that you can explore right like you need well there's parameters you don't cross right there's times and places for the questions you need boundaries to be safe while you're exploring especially as a kid right like now it's very different in the sense that like I can go and wander into a library and pull any book and like be fine but I remember watching TV shows and you being like yeah we can absolutely watch these TV shows but we are going to have a rule about it the rule is if you have any questions you ask them and we talk about them you're not going to go like try and figure it out on your own we are going to talk about this right like we're going to stay open about it whereas and that's that was a hard and fast rule it was a strict rule whereas I think another version of strict would be no you are not allowed to watch this TV show and I'm not right that's not me at all so that's just for clarity in terms of strictness I think that speaks to your strengths in encouraging curiosity but hardcore disciplinarian what's your journey been like to a no longer religious religious um so in line with the the teaching thing and

uh the questioning I think questioning is healthy and important and part of my journey in being a Christian was definitely uh being drawn to Jesus and his example and the love and the acceptance um but then seeing

um the walk what is it okay the the same teacher that made the really dumb some comment about the Simon and gar funkle song actually wrote something on the board one time which was your walk walks and your talk talks but your walk talks more than your talk talks that's that's kind of true it is your walk talks more than your talk talks say that five times fast right right but but she wrote that yeah right and it was so frustrating for me to see people's walk not uh jive with their talk yeah and well and also to see someone who wrote well I don't know this woman but I can theorize that this woman who wrote this on the board also maybe not have her walk correlate with her talk talk right and you're also saying that it should do that it's like right yeah well cognitive dissonance on top of cognitive dissonance and that was everywhere for me growing up was the people and the people that you see acting one way on Sunday and then a different way during the week and I I'll admit it I'm a little legalistic I'm kind of black and white at times I I really try not to be as much but I I I'm self-aware about that and it it it's hard it was hard for me to make that match and so that turn turn me off of church now whenever oh um didn't probably finish the story about the tithing thing but at the end of me asking the questions about the tithing she said I think you just need to not come back because I was asking questions I I don't think it was disrespectful maybe it was I I don't know but she told me a student in her Sunday school class right not to return to Sunday school I think people who are afraid of questioning view it as disrespectful but it's like it's not so it's like was it disrespectful to her maybe it was but that doesn't as adult looking back on it I can definitely see it more objectively it's coming from a place of disrespect well and that's not a teacher an adult could feel disrespected for being made out to look foolish right but it's like well that's not the intention the in question right so so that I was asked not to come back I don't really know why but my mom was like okay we'll just not go back school yeah so we actually stopped going to church and uh which is funny to think about because my mom is so involved in church now um but when I your dad and I were talking about getting married it was important to me to find a home church and to kind of get reconnected to that because I felt like that was a good foundation for raising a family and that was a good way to start so we get back involved into a Baptist Church now we did visit different churches and we always every time we chose a church and we only chose two churches you know the one that we joined then and then the one that you used to go to um totally based on the pastor's sermons 100% based on the sermons because uh the George um gosh I can't remember his last name his he was so smart and his sermons were very lots of different levels could start out basic but he took it to very intellectual places and your dad and I really enjoyed those sermon um we didn't necessarily connect the best with um the people in the Sunday school class we really tried hard wasn't you know a couple of the people we actually did remain friends with but it just wasn't not a love match no and then when we moved to a different town we found another church totally joined that because of the pastor so excellent and I can still remember specific um sermons he gave because remember some of the ones he gave well and even looking back on stuff like that I'm like even now someone who's not a Christian I will go listen to certain sermons and it's it feels like almost like a literature class where you're still gleaning messages and themes from a text doesn't mean you have to agree with the text or the author or anything like that you can still have an intelligent and informed discussion about well I think you and I would believe agree in this that the values in the New Testament are if they boil down to loving everyone as yourself hey I'm all there for it well treating people the way you want to be treated the Golden Rule how many times have you I I say that at least once a week while I'm teaching if you treat others the way you want to be treated is that the way you would like to be treated and um remember I forget what because of my Christian schools that I went to which was also part of me like deconstructing from the Christian too same but um I studied the Bible extensively because we were required to go to bible class right you and your brother know the Bible for like someone who's not Christian I know the Bible very well oh no but you do um but so there's some passage or verse that's essentially like if you're loving other people the best you can and you're loving yourself the best you can and you're loving God the best you can you're going to be okay you're okay and I'm like why do we need all of these thousands of other words then right that's all we need so I I think a lot so any organization with people but any organization of people is going to be flawed period period and um I think doing the best we can and loving each other is the Crux of it yeah and ego unfortunately plays into so much well and I that it does get complicated when really really nice and wonderful messages are housed within a text that carries other very problematic things right yes but we're um OS no that's okay e egos go into it and then

um people lose sight of why we're here power type stuff happens and the thing that has been the bane of my existence the clicks where uh people are not accepted or they're excluded well and what what does exclusion preach except a lack of curiosity about someone else right inclusion is someone is saying I maybe don't understand you I definitely don't understand you because you are not me we have a different experience and I don't even want to try to accept you and I'm not going to try curiosity questioning says I want to hear your story right I want to know who you are and I'm going to I I'm never going to understand it the way you understand your EXP experience or if you don't know someone or if they're a little bit different and we're all a little bit different right spoken just like someone that is really different I mean no seriously I am very normal and very like everyone else right but you know uh she pushes me therefore I don't want to be around her and I'm not saying that I push people and that's why people don't want to be around me although that could be 100% true um but clicks are hurtful and the church seems to have been um such a breeding ground for that and which is interesting yes it's like what about that is leading to these other things and just closed cell organizations that shut other people out and so so that's another umet of this of it that that just turns me off to church um but uh so you said my journey toward all this but in addition to that you know uh learning about all the religions reading books about Abraham and how you know he was the foundation for the three main religions out there today and how they're all very very very similar yet they fight each other and it it does not make any sense and hearing some Christian people say just really ignorant things and I know they don't represent all Christian people but saying well people that have never even met you know there's no way Christ was ever on this island yet somehow the picture of Christ showed and they're Christians even though they've never read the Bible in missionaries it's like okay that's just weird ass [ __ ] no no I don't even know where you're talking talking about but that does sound like some weird ass [ __ ] I mean you know like uh it never made sense to me that if you're not a Christian you're not going to go to heaven and then my question is well what if people have never been taught about Christ yeah it's not their fault excuse me rule seems unfair right and then they'll say I this was the answer to that question to me once and it was there are people that live that just came to understand Christianity because yes maybe the picture of Christ appeared on the toast I mean but seriously on a rock and they received I'm like okay that sounds like a prophet or something which also how does a picture whoa how would they even know that was yeah I know just J and how would they know what Jesus preached but okay and I that's totally tangential I know it is but there's a lot of things like this that exemplify the difficulties you have with and people or coming up with answers to questions because the questions are uncomfortable for them and so they create answers that make no sense the discomfort of not knowing and the discomfort of someone else questioning or you having to question it all goes to that right and so I I don't I don't appreciate that I don't appreciate so so that's part of it you know what I don't care for that very much so I right um so so that not to say that it's wrong and you know some of my best friends are very religious but theoretically you could still hold believe in all of that and still Define yourself as a Christian yeah you could and there are people why have you chosen not to uh I just think and and the way I understand it that you have to believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only son of God that was sent to this earth to uh die on the cross die on the cross for our sins so that we may have eternal life right and I don't think he's the the way capital T capital w I think there are other ways and at the end of the day I think there are other ways and I don't necessarily believe in heaven either I I don't think that there is heaven you don't think there's a Golden Gate well there's pearls involved definitely pearls though no so no I don't I and I but I do believe we all go to the same place yeah um but I I wouldn't call it Heaven yeah I do think we're all interconnected and I think that's beautiful and I think if more people saw each other in the New Testament Jesus definitely preaches this we are brothers and sisters well that was my whole thing with um people were like well you don't believe Jesus is the son of God I'm like no I believe he's the son of God I also believe that I'm the daughter of God and that you're the son of a higher power and that they're the child of a higher power possibly there's all kinds of Scrolls that didn't make it into the New Testament because there were a bunch of men that decided those didn't belong that old white men and the winners that won history and got to write it didn't do the best job right right it's not representative right um yeah but I love the what you ended on being we're all interconnected at the end of the day whatever you want to call that I mean I I usually call call it the universe or our interconnectedness cuz I think or energy but we're all part of it right I think that's the most succinct and that feels like the best language to me um I think you can also call it God I would call it God but I think that that carries a lot of other meaning with it that other people can project on to it so I don't know but whatever you want to call it I think that's a really lovely note to end on that we're all interconnected and that's beautiful and the more we can recog the bits of ourselves and each other and the bits of the other and us better people we are so don't be afraid of what's different yeah we're questioning or learning about the differences final two questions one in light of our conversation did we miss anything is there anything else you want to clarify anything else you want to throw out there anything else you would like to add or say I don't think so sick right I I do think um so some people definitely are like that's a weird person Paige why aren you friends with that person and it's just wait wait but but it just goes back to no no no no who are you talking about that people think you're a weird person no that that I like weird people I like different people I was confused some other people will say I don't know why you talk to him or it's like CU I really think he's kind I I and interesting yes and pushes me we have good conversation and I really love to have good conversation uh I don't like rehashing the same old conversation over and over that to me sucks the life out of me so I I just think pushing yourself um talk to the people that make you uncomfortable not in not in that way that way but but you know what I mean it's like yeah every person I invite on the podcast actually makes me deeply especially your father it goes him then you right but I I think um I just really enjoy talking cuz you connect in that whole interconnectedness it comes out you can feel it you can feel it in almost anybody if you give it a chance what God but you you do no and I'm being silly now my energy shifted into silly but 100% And I think that there is a lot in Christianity that does talk about that stuff but it gets covered up and clouded or thrown out or problematized by so many other things I need to wear makeup for my husband kind of thing The Marvelous Mrs masil like season one first scene right where if you don't know it I'm sure you can find just that scene on YouTube where um I I would type in marvelous Mrs masel getting ready in the morning and it will show you the scene that we're talking about but everything she does is to perfect it for her husband it's and not that that there's nothing wrong with that if if that's I don't know if it's for you and you love to do yourself up and put on your face and do your hair in your clothes well anyone's allowed to make any decision they want I think it turns bad when you don't have all the information and I think nine times out of 10 when you see someone doing something that feels disrespectful to themselves it's because they don't have all the information well and it goes back to when you asked me um about well making meaning right how do you find meaning how do you know what your passion is how is your passion about makeup there there really are people I mean I don't have to convince your listeners that that is a passion for some people absolutely but that scene was not about feeling good about yourself I'm just trying to make it clear I I have nothing against yes no that that scene was very much about being visual pleasing to your husband which it's like there's time and a place but well and if it makes you feel good to be wanted by your partner of course right but it's it's all shelled within context and I think that the context around like we talked about some principles that are in Christianity are really lovely but they are contextualized with some really ugly things um that can hurt that which is unfortunate and sad and I think that that could that's true of all religions most if not all organized religions have done atrocious things in the name of Holiness and most of that stuff's not explicitly written in their scripture and their holy books I mean it's a lot of it is developed over time yeah in culture yeah and is societal so it's very complex last question what's one word that describes how you feel right now um

now I was just looking at you wrote down the word judgment

and but because we were talking about judgment shutting down question right I know and you and you write yourself notes but one word that describes judgment is how I'm feeling right now um you know it actually be so funny if I asked someone that question they were like judged I'm actually feeling very judged you know you did you know what hate uh right I don't know you know I always love spending time with you [Music]

um don't think about it too hard no I know I I guess I'm just kind of relieved that it's over my mama well thank you for I think relief is a great one I think someone El has said relief before too where it's kind of like it can be really nerve-wracking but also feels freeing to talk about it in a way that's so open that is also like very vulnerable it's a really vulnerable thing it is and however you know you tell yourself it's today right now it's not it's not tomorrow it's not next week it's like this is just what I said in this moment yeah so um I think that's part of the beauty of it is that it is just capturing this moment we had together right just this moment and uh everyone else you've interviewed on podcasts uh you could have a similar conversation that would take a completely different tag exactly so that that's kind of beautiful to think about it that that's just this moment in time between the two of us which I think I don't know if I've ever said this on a podcast but it absolutely part of the design of the podcast that yes we're talking about making meaning but for me doing not doing the podcast but talking about making meaning with people I love this is an exercise in while we're talking about that and that's absolutely in the design of the podcast and right why I think it's also so interesting to put it out for an audience because I think it changes the meeting when it's listened to or when it's watched right that also adjusts it when it's interacted with so I think you're spot on and I think relief is a great word and thank you my lovely Mama for doing this you're welcome love